Hi j-body community, since a lot of people here knows a lot about this engine I wish you could help me. I own a 1992 2.2 ohv cavy, you can see my mods on my profile. I'm actually installing the 1.6 comp cams rockers but my mechanic just told me they have distance differences with the oem. They didn't fit in the plateguides too but they will be machined (the plates) he says there's gonna be some pushrod deflection maybe and he wants to know if this is normal or there is a way to correct this (if necessary), and also if the rockers will work ok too. I bought them from JBP (usd autosports) including all valvetrain. Also they sent me 7mm valves and my engine was using 8mm (I don't know why) so I had to make valve guides. My cam is from Import Performance Parts. I did a lot of search but could not find the exact info for me and the ny-jbodies page is no longer working. I asked this thing in another thread but better make my own. Thanks in advance for your valuable help, really need it to finish my valvetrain build.

Sidney.

Sidney Fernandez de Castro wrote:Hi j-body community, since a lot of people here knows a lot about this engine I wish you could help me. I own a 1992 2.2 ohv cavy, you can see my mods on my profile. I'm actually installing the 1.6 comp cams rockers but my mechanic just told me they have distance differences with the oem. They didn't fit in the plateguides too but they will be machined (the plates) he says there's gonna be some pushrod deflection maybe and he wants to know if this is normal or there is a way to correct this (if necessary), and also if the rockers will work ok too. I bought them from JBP (usd autosports) including all valvetrain. Also they sent me 7mm valves and my engine was using 8mm (I don't know why) so I had to make valve guides. My cam is from Import Performance Parts. I did a lot of search but could not find the exact info for me and the ny-jbodies page is no longer working. I asked this thing in another thread but better make my own. Thanks in advance for your valuable help, really need it to finish my valvetrain build.

Sidney.

Yeah, sometimes you need to grind the pushrod guides a little, but pushrod deflection should't be much more than stock, you're only going from 1.5 to 1.6. However, deflection is pretty bad stock, and aftermarket pushrods are always a good idea.
8mm valves were used until the LN2 swiched to a roller valvetrain (or there abouts).




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

The few companies selling oversize OHV valves sell 7mm diameter stems, since that's what most 2.2's have. 93 is the official changeover year to 7mm stems. I'm sure the guy doing your machine work was able to find 7mm guides to install. They're not much $$ and it's a good idea to change them after 16 years in service anyway.

-->Slow

Thank you guys.

Sidney.

Hello again, I am still having some problems, mounted everything, grinded a little, but the pushrods are too loose and they come out of their place, looks like I need larger pushrods or maybe make more thread to the stud. I am using this order: head, guideplate, rocker, and inside the rocker goes some kind of semi-spherical washer that sits at the bottom of the rocker an finally goes the locknut. But the pushrods feel so loose like they need more height or something. What am I doing wrong? Thanks.
Sidney

Sorry guys, my mistake (well, my mechanic's). Pushrods weren't placed right.. Tomorrow will start the engine. Hope everything will be ok.

Sidney

Hey, since we're on this topic... Why don't we list the suggested pushrod lengths & widths to shape any aftermarket pushrods for the ol' Double Deuce when doing the 1.6 rocker mod (Pre-'98 & Post-'97 please).

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

When I did my 2.2 I used the stock pushrods, but you need NEW ones.

You also need rocker arm studs to go with the 1.6 rockers. A good way to order by vehicle is to tell them 89 Chevy Celebrity w/ 2.8 V6. The weirdest thing at the dealership.... the 2.8 takes 12 of them, you need 8. But they come in boxes of 5.

You need to cut back the guideplates by a bit. I don't remember if it was 1/16 or 1/8 inch. I guess start with 16th and install. Rotate the engine around checking for clearance. If there's any rubbing, take them back some more.

Then you need to do a lash adjustment. I don't remember the exact procedure on it.

SHOoff wrote:When I did my 2.2 I used the stock pushrods, but you need NEW ones.

You also need rocker arm studs to go with the 1.6 rockers. A good way to order by vehicle is to tell them 89 Chevy Celebrity w/ 2.8 V6. The weirdest thing at the dealership.... the 2.8 takes 12 of them, you need 8. But they come in boxes of 5.

You need to cut back the guideplates by a bit. I don't remember if it was 1/16 or 1/8 inch. I guess start with 16th and install. Rotate the engine around checking for clearance. If there's any rubbing, take them back some more.

Then you need to do a lash adjustment. I don't remember the exact procedure on it.

GM studs are only for Comp Magnums. Crane needs ARPs.



fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

Hello j-body comunity, now I'm having serious problems with my build. After 3 months of nice work the pushrods started to make noise and then the whole thing started to fail. I am still using the guideplates. I grinded the head as you told me. The problem starts when the engine is 'hot', when keeps runing for a while, so the oil pressure goes down, then the lifters (some of them) discharges and some pushrods are not adjusted too much and start to slide, working not straight but with some inclination (deflection) and according to my mechanic that is the cause of the failure. So, when the oil pressure goes down the pushrods gets loose. Now, he also says that the guideplates are weared and not guiding well the pushrods so they work inclinated and probably just touching the edge of the rocker. I am using the same stock studs. He says that using new guideplates we can solve the problem but in 3 months they will be weared again and I will have the same problem. Do I need to replace the studs and use the thick washers instead of the guideplates? That will solve my problem? My rockers are not self-aligned? They are Comp Cams. When the whole engine starts to fail, like after a half an hour running, it turns off. I am lost here. Thanks a lot.
Sidney

Anybody please? Madjack, ohv notec?

OHV notec wrote:]GM studs are only for Comp Magnums. Crane needs ARPs.

Granted it's been a couple months. But I will point out that this does not relate to this thead since OP stated that he's using the rockers from Comp.

Quote:

The problem starts when the engine is 'hot', when keeps runing for a while, so the oil pressure goes down, then the lifters (some of them) discharges and some pushrods are not adjusted too much and start to slide, working not straight but with some inclination (deflection) and according to my mechanic that is the cause of the failure. So, when the oil pressure goes down the pushrods gets loose.

My RR's always had a slight tick when the engine was running. But nothing real drastic. What kind of sound are you getting? And exactly how far is the oil pressure dropping when it warms up. I know it'll come down some, but it shouldn't be so much that it's deflating the lifters.

If the engine starts to sound like a diesel engine, then your problem is probably the timing chain tensioner. They're kinda cheap.

SHOoff wrote:

OHV notec wrote:]GM studs are only for Comp Magnums. Crane needs ARPs.

Granted it's been a couple months. But I will point out that this does not relate to this thead since OP stated that he's using the rockers from Comp.

That was just a clarification for anyone looking for rockers (I get a lot of emails/PMs about this lol).

If the guideplates are worn, just grind them down further
You could always get aftermarket p-rods to reduce deflection.



fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

The sound is the less important thing. When the engine starts the oil pressure is at 50, after a while, when is hot, falls to 25 at stall, and starts the sound. After a while the whole thing starts to die until it turns off, but before that is like one or 2 cylinders are dead. At this moment is when my mechanic says that some lifters are discharged and the pushrods start to deflect and misalign with the rockers. If the guideplates are worn, how can grinding them solve my problem? Wouldn't it be like they are more worn?. Getting wider pushrods will solve the problem? I used new ones, aftermarket, but they are exactly the same as stock. Thanks for your valuable help.
Sidney

I think it's wise at this point to suggest a few other mods that have seen apply to the Double-Deuce that would perhaps not only help but complement the rockers. But first, a few questions:

How many miles are on your engine? If it's around 100,000mi then it's likely due for a new timing chain-set. And if it's been replaced already, who made it? If it was from anybody other than whom was suggested on this board (GM, Cloyes) then you were just asking for an early failure (Damn cheapo engine rebuilders!). And who replaced it? Because if it fragmented & pieces got into the pan, unless the efforts were made to clear those frags out the system may have picked some of them up & fed them to the lifters, mains & rods... In that order.

You say your cold-start oil pressure is 50psi? I've personally never seen an LN2 that had less than even 65psi (Typically 74psi) at cold-start, or less than 30psi warm, unless the oiling system had a flaw to it (Like being contaminated by metal fragments like I just mentioned). I'd start an inspection of your oiling system to see if everything is alright and if anything may have gotten into it. I'm betting it did. At that point the only choice you'd have is to start wholely fresh, as in a whole new engine that's been freshly rebuilt since getting the metal fragments out of the oil galleys is impossible without doing a thorough disassembly.

Now that's out of the way, here's the suggestions:

Replace the oil pump with Melling P/N: M-8. the M8 is the older ('90-'92 J-car) version of the LN2s pump & has a pressure relief setting of 80psi. This may seem a bit much for a street car but believe me, if you you have mods on it & drive it daily this is the pump to have. It should deliver more than enough oil to the lifters to keep them pressurized if your system is okay. That is unless you want to cheese-out on checking the system & just drop the pan and slap a pump with a higher output than what you have now overall in, at which point I'd (Usually not except in this case) suggest getting the Melling M8HV oil pump. It has the desired higher pressure that everyone here recommends & a higher volume output (Hence the HV) that is usually recommended for use with cases where the clearances in the engine are looser than typically allowed for a street engine (More like for a race-only engine) when using the factory recommended weight of oil. Just putting it up there, folks! No need to tear me a new one.

Look into the LN2/LT-1 hybrid lifter mod. This is a simple replacement of the lifter's internal check springs (There's two: One big, one small) with the one's found in the LT-1's lifters. There are typically done in cases where the engine may see in excess of 6000rpm, but I think in this case (Or any where higher ratio rockers are installed & the head might be removed) they may be a necessity to combat the bleed-down (excessive lifter discharge while the lifter are under load) you're seeing.

That's about all the suggestions I have (Outside of running an oil with a higher base & top weight). If anyone here has any feedback, I'd suggest doing it now so as to help the unfortunate fellow LN2 builder/operator.



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Thanks for your help. Oil system seems ok, at cold start is about 50-60 psi and when hot is at stall around 30psi. Problem here is pushrod deflection because the 1.6 rockers cause it and I can't find the way to avoid this. Larger pushrods may be but I don't know where to find them. Hybrid lifters? Where can I learn to do that and will this be the solution?. The thing here is that my car was runing fine like 2 weeks ago (runing for about 3 months) and after that started the failure. For now, I will return to stock rockers, after spending a lot of money on buying and importing comp camps rockers 1.6 from Usa.

Thanks,

Sidney

Oil pump is M98, not M8

Grinding the guideplates would help in the future, as they obvioulsy weren't ground enough this time.
It is possible you have a collapsed lifter I suppose. Hybrid lifters found here: http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=349986&t=349986&p=1



fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

We disarmed the whole cyl head and valvetrain, lifters are ok. The grinding work that I did was this: '' You need to remove the guide plates and grind approximately 1/8" from the pusrod hole closest to the rocker arm stud's hole. Be sure to give a quick smoothing with some sandpaper to remove any burs, as not to damage the pushrods. With this mod will eliminate the deflection caused by the guide plate.''
As you can see, I never touched the guide plates. Was that my mistake? If yes, how should I grind them.

Btw, timing chain is ok too.

Thanks,

Sidney.

If you really want to insure that the pushrods aren't deflecting, then maybe you should get ones with heavier walls made... after you regrind the guide-plates. Remember, what the rockers are subjecting the pushrods to is like levering a crow- or pry-bar on the short end relative to the pivot. It'll take alot more effort & may cause what's forcing it to give somewhat, somehow. And increasing the ratio only makes the short-side shorter. Here's the suggested measurements I got from another on this board as to how to have them made:

7.406" Length x 3/8" Diameter

I hope this is of use to you & you get your Double-Deuce runnin' right, as I hate to see a fellow owner of one have ridiculous problems with it. We've already got enough troubles with lack of after-market support & occasional young, close-minded "Cammers" getting on our cases. Best wishes, man. And G'day!


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Thanks for the help, tomorrow I'll try to post some pics. My mechanic says that if we change the pushrod lenght we will be messing with the valve timing and maybe causing bigger trouble. The thing is that I am on vacatio til tomorrow, so, tomorrow I'll see with my very eyes what is going on in the cyl head and valvetrain and take some pics, because until now I was trying to interpretate (with my very limited knowledge of mechanicss and translate from spanish what my mechanic tells me on the phone, so, was very difficult to really express all the angles of the problem.

Thanks again.

Sidney

Hi again. Sorry but I don't know how to post pictures. Today I saw the problem with my very eyes. Comp Cams Rockers have a shorter arm to make contact to the pushrods than the stock ones. With stock rockers, pushrod works straight, the arm of the rocker is aligned with the lifter. With comp cams the pushrod deflects because rocker arm is shorter, that's why I grinded (drilled) a little bit the pushrod hole but maybe I need to drill more but my mechanic is afraid that maybe we can touch the combustion chamber or that the valve goes down to fast and explode or bend to the piston. The studs have marks made by the rockers, like a little bite at one side, down the thread, where the rocker swings, seems like a consecuence of the misalignement. Basic problem seem to be that the whole lifter-pushrod-rocker-valve mechanism is loose al some point and that's why the engine fails, the pushrod moves and the rocker comes out from the correct position and works bad with the valve. By the other hand, I feel that the rocker is too loose respect to the stud. I remember that I had to bore the studs because the stock rockers hole in the middle is wider that the comp cams and they didn't fit. I hope you guys can help me. I returned to stock rockers by now. Thanks.

Sidney

Did you get new studs, or just use the stockers?



fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

Wait a minute... Sidney, are you using Comp Cams Stamped-steel style rockers with the studs we suggested here? If you are, there's part of your problem there: Those rockers are non-self-aligning! No wonder they've been falling outta alignment. And yes, the pushrod is moved closer to the fulcrum. That's how they make the increase of lift. I would seriously look into getting custom length heavier wall pushrods (Like I suggested) if I were you & wanted to go back to the higher rockers.

And as for why they've been coming loose, it's because you just changed the rocker system from a torque-to style (Where the lock-nut is simply torqued to a factory spec to achieve the desired lash) to an adjustable-lash style (Where the lash mush be set by tightening-down the lock-nut until the specification of lash-clearance is met). Congratulations! You just turned it into the system found on a Small-block Chevy V-8! Now, because the lifters are designed like those found on a SBC, you must adjust the lash like you're working on one! Don't fret, I'll talk you through it if you're unfamiliar...

Now this can be done with the engine warm or cold, but when it's warm is probably best. with the rockers slightly loosened (Just enough to feel them rock back-&-forth from the pushrod to the valve tip, like they should, by hand), give the engine just a momentary run (Just for about 3-4sec, that's it!) to get the oiling system to fill the lifters with oil fully. Then slowly bring the #1 cylinder to TDC (Top Dead Center) by hand (With a wrench, of course) with the lifters on the part of the cam lobe where both valves closed (The base circle). Now, with deft hands, rock the rocker back-&-forth gently with one hand while turning-down the lock-nut with a wrench in the other (Duh!) until you just don't feel any movement of the rocker anymore as you try to rock it. Then give the lock-nut an additional 1/4 tightening turn. Repeat the last two steps on all the rockers to be adjusted as told to when according to the service manual (on each one's compression stroke at TDC. They're each just a 180* of the crank apart from each-other), and you're done! It's just that easy.



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Uh, sorry about the excessive underlining. Damn thing glitched again.


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Wow, I hope that things are not hard to do, I have to translate all this to spanish and tell to my mechanic hehe. Really, a lot of thanks for your time and help. Btw, I am using stock studs but as I said I had to bore them because comp cams roller rockers didn't fit.

I must say, is not that we have lame mechanics here but seriously, probably nobody here in Peru made all the mods that I had to a cavalier, maybe some interior or exterios but no serious mods like cam, flywheel, rods, pistons, msd, etc etc (you can see in my profile) that's why it's being so hard, we are learning from zero here. I can say that nobody here believed that you can import (and spend money) from Usa all that parts.

Thanks,

Sidney