I got an LSJ manifold off of a Cobalt SS supercharged and it is to be installed on my wife's 2003 Ecotec Sunfire.

The questions are:

What is the best tool on the downpipe side of the manifold to port it?

What is the best tool for the head side of the manifold to port it?

How do I get into the piping to dremil it out too when it is so hard to get down in there?

I do not want to just take a dremil and hope it visually looks even.

On the head side, it probably will have to be a dremil to do the work there I am guessing.

Thanks again!

I really wouldn't bother porting the intake manifold. It should be pretty close to the ports on the head already.

Don't know if you knew about it but Crate Engine Depot sells the manifolds from the 2.4ecotec if your looking for higher flow.


-Chris

Use an air powered die grinder. Buy some good bits, only thing yoy really need to do is smooth out the inside, and remove the casting flaws, and open up the collector a little bit feeling for thickness making sure you dont port it out too much, took me at least 4-5 hours to get it done, you will have to make some sort of extention to reach in really far and smooth up the inside, I had to rig it up with a drill bit and a socket and some electrical tape, and I had to keep replacing the tape, but eventually I got it done. You dont need to open up the head side as they are plenty big, just smoothe it out, but open up the collector at its smallest point and smooth out the area where the o2 sensor pokes out should help flow some.

I am probably the only person on here who has actually done it, if you dont get a 2.5" downpipe, it probably wont really be worth it as I did not feel much of any of a difference, although I think if flowed way better than the stock manifold, it just slammed right back into the crappy 2" downpipe...

IamRascal wrote:I really wouldn't bother porting the intake manifold. It should be pretty close to the ports on the head already.

Don't know if you knew about it but Crate Engine Depot sells the manifolds from the 2.4ecotec if your looking for higher flow.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the LSJ exhaust manifold.

Air powered diegrinder with some cone shaped and cylindrical carbine bits of with short, medium, and long mandrels, and some sanding rolls too. Or you can send it to Extrude Hone. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with it. Put it on as is, or buy a header.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

gm sells a ported stock manifold already

either way a ported stock manifold isnt worth it

Thank you all for the tips on porting.

I am going ahead and will extrude hone this manifold though.

I understand that this is NOT as good as a header.
The output of a header and custom downpipe will be double the hp gain, but also will be double the price.
I just don't want any issues with the sometimes unknowledgeable police telling me to take my header off even if it is carb exempt.

I have seen the L61 manifold, and it is D shaped on the downpipe side.
The L61 manifold looks so unbelievably restricted.

This LSJ manifold is a big O shape on the downpipe side, and I have seen the pics of the extrude honed manifold that they want $250 for.

I paid only $25 shipped for this LSJ manifold!
That is 1/10 the price and I will do the porting myself.

Anyways, I know people with a Cobalt have been getting 3hp from the extrude honed manifold, and I personally wouldn't pay $250 for 3hp.

But... that is a 3hp gain over the Cobalt stock manifold, which is what I have and will be putting on an 03 Sunfire.
In 2007 all 2.2 Cobalts get the same manifold as the SS Cobalts, they do not make L61 manifolds as of 07.

I am hoping that the gains will be more like 5hp since I am:
1- trading up from the restrictive D shaped L61a.
2- further enhancing the manifold through porting.

I figure even if the manifold only gets 4 more hp, I only paid $25 for it.
I am told the manifold swap will cost me $50 labor.
I am also getting a 2 1/4 inch downpipe made up and was quoted $65 to make one at a local muffler shop.
I also have the gaskets and bolts which is a little more money.
All of this is around $170 or so total to get a little more flow out of my already 2 1/4 inch exhaust, not pricey.

Just a Pacesetter header alone is around $240 with armor coat, which is the only way to go if I got one.
Then factor in the $50 install (or more because I hear these aftermarket headers are not always plug and play, they need modified and fitted), plus bolts and gaskets, and cost of a custom made downpipe. That would be almost double or more what I am going to pay, but the output would be double from the header.

The downpipe should give at least a 3hp difference.
I know that I cannot just add hp together, but the output over the entire RPM band should be at least another 3-5hp.

After this I am getting a CAI, a strut bar brace, a K brace, and a set of 15" Trak Lite alloy rims that are only 10lbs a piece!

Of course this will be over the next 6 months and not at once, I am not rich.

Mike85220 wrote:Thank you all for the tips on porting.

I am going ahead and will extrude hone this manifold though.

I understand that this is NOT as good as a header.
The output of a header and custom downpipe will be double the hp gain, but also will be double the price.
I just don't want any issues with the sometimes unknowledgeable police telling me to take my header off even if it is carb exempt.

I have seen the L61 manifold, and it is D shaped on the downpipe side.
The L61 manifold looks so unbelievably restricted.

This LSJ manifold is a big O shape on the downpipe side, and I have seen the pics of the extrude honed manifold that they want $250 for.

I paid only $25 shipped for this LSJ manifold!
That is 1/10 the price and I will do the porting myself.

Anyways, I know people with a Cobalt have been getting 3hp from the extrude honed manifold, and I personally wouldn't pay $250 for 3hp.

But... that is a 3hp gain over the Cobalt stock manifold, which is what I have and will be putting on an 03 Sunfire.
In 2007 all 2.2 Cobalts get the same manifold as the SS Cobalts, they do not make L61 manifolds as of 07.

I am hoping that the gains will be more like 5hp since I am:
1- trading up from the restrictive D shaped L61a.
2- further enhancing the manifold through porting.

I figure even if the manifold only gets 4 more hp, I only paid $25 for it.
I am told the manifold swap will cost me $50 labor.
I am also getting a 2 1/4 inch downpipe made up and was quoted $65 to make one at a local muffler shop.
I also have the gaskets and bolts which is a little more money.
All of this is around $170 or so total to get a little more flow out of my already 2 1/4 inch exhaust, not pricey.

Just a Pacesetter header alone is around $240 with armor coat, which is the only way to go if I got one.
Then factor in the $50 install (or more because I hear these aftermarket headers are not always plug and play, they need modified and fitted), plus bolts and gaskets, and cost of a custom made downpipe. That would be almost double or more what I am going to pay, but the output would be double from the header.

The downpipe should give at least a 3hp difference.
I know that I cannot just add hp together, but the output over the entire RPM band should be at least another 3-5hp.

After this I am getting a CAI, a strut bar brace, a K brace, and a set of 15" Trak Lite alloy rims that are only 10lbs a piece!

Of course this will be over the next 6 months and not at once, I am not rich.

...its a stock POS cast iron manifold...

and you're making a custom downpipe but leaving the header alone? wtf... why dick around on the exhaust then blow $290 a wheel on lightweight track wheels?

your modding scheme makes no sense.. thinking way too hard over 2 hp.

Quote:

...its a stock POS cast iron manifold...

and you're making a custom downpipe but leaving the header alone? wtf... why dick around on the exhaust then blow $290 a wheel on lightweight track wheels?

your modding scheme makes no sense.. thinking way too hard over 2 hp.

I have seen the Trak Lite 15 inchers for $750 for a 4 piece set, $290 per is a rip.
The rims are more for aesthetics, but the loss of over 12lbs a wheel will make the car have more pep and be able to stop a little quicker.

Remember that that I currently have a stock L61 manifold which is getting swapped with a soon to be ported LSJ higher flow manifold. T

The reasons I am not getting a header was explained.

I am not trying to build a track car, it is a daily driver with some pep and no more.

If I get this car to hit 60mph in 7.4 seconds, I will be happy as that is the goal for just bolt-ons.

I know people here with a similar list of overall mods are getting 165-170hp at the motor.
The Cobalt SS 2.4 is 171hp, and has a 0-60 of 7.4 seconds, so I am hoping I will attain the same.
I might be way off, but the car has liked the mods so far and I am only willing to toss a few hundred here and there for mods until they offer the supercharger kit on crateenginedepot.com for $1600 or so like they do for the 2.4 older Sunfire and Cav.


2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold and a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit and VIS Invader hood.

DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) v2.0 wrote:[your modding scheme makes no sense..

agree, why spend $170 on a piece of crap when you can get a header for $160


2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
650 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero

You got that for a steal, I havent seen them go for less than $60 or so. just make sure you get a bigger downpipe to go with it and possibly move the o2 sensor into the downpipe, and plug the hold in the manifold, that will lessen the bottleneck right there at the collector. An extrude honed manifold was worth 4-6 hp over a stock lsj manifold, on a ss cobalt look on cobaltss.net and look up a guy named doc, granted that a supercharged car but it already had the better flowing lsj manifold to begin with not the crappy d shaped l61 mainifold. It should be good for a few hp over stock as long as you get the bigger downpipe. but you could end up spending more on that downpipe than you think.

Quote:

and plug the hold in the manifold

Do you mean plug the SAI hole in the middle?
Or plug both the SAI and the old O2 sensor hole?

If the extrude honed LSJ manifold got 4-6 over the stock LSJ, this should actually be more like 8 or 9 hp over the L61 manifold.

I have a friend that owns his muffler shop, he has been giving me some great deals.
That downpipe is going to cost me $65 for a 2 1/4 inch, which is very good.

Getting a cheapy Pacesetter for $160 that will rust and probably leak from broken welds within 3 years, or $220 for an Armor coat model that wont rust but might still pop a weld will still need a custom downpipe and mods to get it to fit which will cost even more money. From start to finish, the header option will cost around $300 total in labor and custom work.

I am only spending $170 to get 8 or 9hp, which I feel is a good deal.
(thanks Will for pointing out a ported LSJ is 4-6hp over a stock LSJ, and as such it is very feasible that a stock L61 is at least 3 less hp to a stock LSJ)

A header for $300 will get me 12 or 13hp, which is only 3-4 more hp over the ported LSJ but is $130 more.
I could have probably spent a little more but I did give an explaination why I am going this route.

I just don't want the people checking my emmissions telling me to remove my header. If that happens they wont give me a pass on my emmissions in order to renew my tags. Don't think it wont happen as some people are a-holes and even if I have papers or stickers stating it is CARB legal, the people at the emmissions test facility can make it into headache/ nightmare for me. In Arizona, they are getting more strict emmissions wise. So in a few years, this might be even more of a possibility for problems than even now.




2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

your port job while slightly better than the stock manifold , youll be giving up the areas you cant get to with the porting tools(which is why the GM ported is extrude honed)

plus you have no idea what your doing while your porting , there is alot more than just making the hole bigger

this alone is reason to buy a header or leave it STOCK

Quote:

I am told the manifold swap will cost me $50 labor.

being a cheap ass is fine , but when your to panzy to do the labor you need to walk away

First off I have no tools (most of mine were stolen), and no shop with a lift to perform this swap.

Second off the only pansy here, not panzyfool is you.

All I asked for was for tips on porting so I don't have to pay $250 for the GM manifold, and I get that disparaging comments for no reason, what an a$$hole.


2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

so you have the tools to port the manifold but you dont have a few wrenches? and you dont need a lift.
dont speculate what kind of HP gain your going to have to justify why your doing the mod. your not going to spend money on a dyno run to ever find out if you gained 3 HP....if you even get that.
theres nothing wrong with what your trying to do....just dont try to justify it by comparing the HP gains.

I was talking about putting a plug where the o2 sensor goes, and having a bung welded into your downpipe, and then putting a bolt in the old o2 sensor hole in the manifold and opening up that area a bit. The later cobalts had the o2 sensor in the downpipe and had the manifold hole plugged so it should not be a problem and it will make that area less of a restriction with the o2 sticking out in the smallest point.

i can't imagine anyone screwing anything up if they just grind down the casting marks. (which are huge and everywhere) and smoothing up the inside and opening up the collector area a bit, Its not like the rough inside and large round casting marks are engineered for performance, (pretty sure the number 2 sticing up inside the collector area wasn't a performance enhancer ) having them gone can only help,

now if you tried to really grind out the entire inside making it much larger the whole way through you may screw something up, but the extrude honing probably doesn't do much more than smoothing out the inside and take away the large casting marks, and you can get all the way inside, just have to be creative and make an extention for your grinder bits, I did it so it is possible.

Even if its not perfectly even all the way through when you are done, well it sure as hell wasn't to begin with either, now it is at lest larger and smoother

and the gains I mentioned, were 4-6 hp and like 6 ft lbs. torque at the wheels, on a SUPERCHARGED cobalt a Forced inducion vehicle will see greater gains than N/A. That being said like you stated earlier that was going from a lsj to a ported lsj, not a l61 to a ported lsj you should see some good gains, what else looked nice was that the gains were very constant through the entire RPM band from what I recall, so you not just gettin peak hp, but a similar gain throughout.

you got a manifold with the SAI hole? just read that... that is off the later cobalts, what year is it from? don't know what you are going to do with that? those are pretty undesirable as there is no way to plug the hole, you may want to get an earlier manifold. and no you dont need a lift for just the manifold, down pipe... maybe if you dont have a jack, but don't pay for the manifold swap I did it with no lift or jack whatsoever, its easy

you still make no sense..

mike85220 wrote:I just don't want any issues with the sometimes unknowledgeable police telling me to take my header off even if it is carb exempt.

mike85220 wrote:I might be way off, but the car has liked the mods so far and I am only willing to toss a few hundred here and there for mods until they offer the supercharger kit on crateenginedepot.com for $1600 or so like they do for the 2.4 older Sunfire and Cav.

...so whats to say the police won't be stupidand tell you to remove your supercharger..?

Quote:

...so whats to say the police won't be stupidand tell you to remove your supercharger..?

I probably am overly paranoid... my loss.

Quote:

what year is it from?

The SAI manifold is off of an 07 Cobalt LS.

I have talked to a few people and all I need to do is add a little weld around the two center ports and plug the hole from the inside and it will work fine.

Quote:

so you have the tools to port the manifold but you dont have a few wrenches?

I got a dremil for Christmas, and it isn't doing jack. The bit was eaten up in 1 minute and not much metal was being removed.
I have a drill, and will be buying some stone attachments this weekend to take on this task.

As for the wrenches, I have heard a lot of people that have tried to get the old manifold off and have had to use an air wrench as it was frozen. My luck says that these bolts will be a PITA to get off, and I don't want to be in a position where I get all but one bolt off and be out a car for a few days trying to rectify the situation. It will be a lot easier if I just have my friend who owns a muffler and brake shop to do it for a little money and know it will be done right.

I am probably only going to open up the downpipe side and only remove the imperfections on the head side as suggested. I will check the #2 collector and the O2 port on this SAI manifold to see if it too has a lot of restriction that I can remove.

I have looked at pics on the CobaltSS.net of the L61 manifold, and that D shaped port is legendarily restrictive.
I can see why just swapping on this manifold alone will make a good bump in flow.

Quote:

your not going to spend money on a dyno run to ever find out if you gained 3 HP....if you even get that.
theres nothing wrong with what your trying to do....just dont try to justify it by comparing the HP gains.

Honestly, since I have seen the stock Cobalt 07 manifold compared to the L61 it is a pretty safe bet that it would give at least 3hp more. I have read in a few places like CobaltSS.net and http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/build.html that just a port job on a exhaust manifold is a 3hp gain.

If I not only upped the manifold design wise, but further went on with a port job, it should be at least 5hp.
Now take the stock 1 7/8 inch downpipe and make it 2 1/4 inch, that it taking the bottleneck out of the exhaust, it should be a good gain since the entire exhaust is already 2 1/4 inch and the weakest link was the downpipe mated to a D shape port manifold which is as if GM wanted horrible flow.

The manifold is 'one' of the reasons why the new Cobalt has a few hp over the older 2.2 Ecotec.

...and yes, I know it is still just a manifold, not a header. I don't have much money into it and I am not trying to cover the 1/4 in 14 seconds as an overall goal.

Quote:

...so whats to say the police won't be stupidand tell you to remove your supercharger..?

They might, ever see the smog traps? They have them all over Virginia, I have not seen one yet in Arizona but I bet it is to come.


2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

Mike85220 wrote:

Quote:


Honestly, since I have seen the stock Cobalt 07 manifold compared to the L61 it is a pretty safe bet that it would give at least 3hp more. I have read in a few places like CobaltSS.net and http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/build.html that just a port job on a exhaust manifold is a 3hp gain.

If I not only upped the manifold design wise, but further went on with a port job, it should be at least 5hp.

you still dont get it.....sigh
dyno proof from these places that youve read about 3HP gains. then your adding up HP like 2+2=4.
so if i made a post that said i gained 17 HP from my new muffler bearings, does that mean if i ported the tailpipe, i would get 4 more HP?



you dont want to spend the money on a header, so you sure arent going to spend money on the dyno and prove any gains from the manifold.

just do it and stop making HP claims

You obviously think I am a HP stacker -I am not... My claims are not like other people. I am stating some pretty low gains here.

I know most people for example who say their intake is 12hp, the header is 15hp, exhaust is 15hp, therefore they must have 42 more hp than stock. They are wrong... Only a dyno or a comparison of an old time slip at the track will tell how the mods helped...

I am not saying if the car was bone stock as an example that with the manifold and downpipe added I would on a 140hp car now have 143hp. I do know that I will have a gain at certain areas of the RPM band (lows,mids,highs) and sometimes hp goes down in one area and gains in another and so on. I know all about this phenomenon.

I know for a fact that there are people here and over on CobaltSS.net that have the 02-05 Ecotec 2.2s with a CAI, and header/ full exhaust that have 165 hp at the crank, and the dyno is saying at the wheels it is about 140hp. That is a 25hp gain, and not 42 like the HP stackers would have you believe. But the car has a lot more power throughout the lows, mids and highs due to these mods of allowing the motor to get more air in and be able to get rid of the exhaust faster.

Logically if a manifold is rated and dynoed 3hp over stock, it makes no sense that porting it 'wont' enhance those numbers. The only exception is if the motor design for whatever reason, the mod went past the point of helping and actually hurt performance. An example of this is having a 3 inch exhaust on a NA 4 banger with stock 140hp. Now there is not enough back pressure. With my mod I seriously doubt I am going against the motor.

The manifold was restrictive, the ports are now larger by design, and on top of this it is ported and thus it has even less of a restriction. Would you say it is still adding only 3hp??? Or would you say it is feasible it is more?

That was 'just' the manifold alone.

Now add a 2 1/4 inch downpipe...

Now how much much would you assume across the RPM band has the HP gone up? A measily 5hp? This gain is a lowball in my opinion, and if I am wrong which I sincerely doubt, oh well.

The stock manifold and down-pipe are the weakest link here on my exhaust, so do you really feel it is going to only stay at a 3hp gain with the better designed and ported manifold along with a larger downpipe? Saying 3-5hp as a gain at either the max output (not hard to picture) or as a consistent gain over the entire RPM band which is also not jumping the gun.

I do get it, sigh



2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

Mike85220 wrote:You obviously think I am a HP stacker -I am not... My claims are not like other people. I am stating some pretty low gains here.

I know most people for example who say their intake is 12hp, the header is 15hp, exhaust is 15hp, therefore they must have 42 more hp than stock. They are wrong... Only a dyno or a comparison of an old time slip at the track will tell how the mods helped...

I am not saying if the car was bone stock as an example that with the manifold and downpipe added I would on a 140hp car now have 143hp. I do know that I will have a gain at certain areas of the RPM band (lows,mids,highs) and sometimes hp goes down in one area and gains in another and so on. I know all about this phenomenon.

I know for a fact that there are people here and over on CobaltSS.net that have the 02-05 Ecotec 2.2s with a CAI, and header/ full exhaust that have 165 hp at the crank, and the dyno is saying at the wheels it is about 140hp. That is a 25hp gain, and not 42 like the HP stackers would have you believe. But the car has a lot more power throughout the lows, mids and highs due to these mods of allowing the motor to get more air in and be able to get rid of the exhaust faster.

Logically if a manifold is rated and dynoed 3hp over stock, it makes no sense that porting it 'wont' enhance those numbers. The only exception is if the motor design for whatever reason, the mod went past the point of helping and actually hurt performance. An example of this is having a 3 inch exhaust on a NA 4 banger with stock 140hp. Now there is not enough back pressure. With my mod I seriously doubt I am going against the motor.

The manifold was restrictive, the ports are now larger by design, and on top of this it is ported and thus it has even less of a restriction. Would you say it is still adding only 3hp??? Or would you say it is feasible it is more?

That was 'just' the manifold alone.

Now add a 2 1/4 inch downpipe...

Now how much much would you assume across the RPM band has the HP gone up? A measily 5hp? This gain is a lowball in my opinion, and if I am wrong which I sincerely doubt, oh well.

The stock manifold and down-pipe are the weakest link here on my exhaust, so do you really feel it is going to only stay at a 3hp gain with the better designed and ported manifold along with a larger downpipe? Saying 3-5hp as a gain at either the max output (not hard to picture) or as a consistent gain over the entire RPM band which is also not jumping the gun.

I do get it, sigh

restriction and flow alone do NOT increase power.

header design has a lot more to it than diameter of the runners, the shape, the angle they combine at, the collector size, all have a lot to do with how it'll increase and help scavenge exhaust gases from the cylinders.

you look WAY too deep into a simple matter. buy a real header, or waste money and time. its that simple. A stock manifold that has a runner thats 3 inches long and smashes everything together almost instantly is not going to make as much power as a header with a 4-1 or even a 4-2-1 design.

you're assuming a LOT about flow characteristics.

my favorite quote:

Quote:

An example of this is having a 3 inch exhaust on a NA 4 banger with stock 140hp. Now there is not enough back pressure. With my mod I seriously doubt I am going against the motor.

I LOVE THE BACKPRESSURE MYTH!

you clearly know absolutely nothing about header design and exhaust flow. stop doing your 'logic' performance. Do a google search about scavenging effect and header design and get educated so you can stop making these idiotic posts.

just because a port is larger, does NOT mean its better. Selt porting something does NOT always help.

Quote:

Now how much much would you assume across the RPM band has the HP gone up? A measily 5hp? This gain is a lowball in my opinion, and if I am wrong which I sincerely doubt, oh well.

lmao. you going to tune this setup? you'll be lucky to see 3hp. You're barking up the wrong tree with your 'logic' performance.

But I know this is falling on deaf ears because 'logically' you know more about exhaust design than the people here who have actually done track and dyno testing or who spend countless hours researching the topic.. talking with people who design custom headers for a living, reading books, etc...

But I digress.. I have 3" exhaust on my n/a car and I mean we all know thats not enough backpressure for the engine... so, what do I know?

Quote:

restriction and flow alone do NOT increase power.

header design has a lot more to it than diameter of the runners, the shape, the angle they combine at, the collector size, all have a lot to do with how it'll increase and help scavenge exhaust gases from the cylinders.

you look WAY too deep into a simple matter. buy a real header, or waste money and time. its that simple. A stock manifold that has a runner thats 3 inches long and smashes everything together almost instantly is not going to make as much power as a header with a 4-1 or even a 4-2-1 design.

you're assuming a LOT about flow characteristics.

I never even talked about header designs, I talked about a manifold getting ported out a little with a friggin 2 1/4" down-pipe added.

Quote:

just because a port is larger, does NOT mean its better. Selt porting something does NOT always help.

No @!#$ Sherlock, I already said that. On a 140hp car, 3" piping is stupid. Why not look at the specs for a 2.2 liter motor with 140hp and see what the size piping one should have. It is 2 1/4 and it will support up to 200hp, of which I will never reach. As for YOUR car, you have enough mods to probably justify a 3 inch exhaust, and even at that I have my doubts.

I LOVE THE BACKPRESSURE MYTH!

Quote:

But I digress.. I have 3" exhaust on my n/a car and I mean we all know thats not enough backpressure for the engine... so, what do I know?

All you know how to do apparently is to argue.
I clearly stated that other people ALREADY dynoed the LSJ ported manifold at 3hp, and it is not even as drastic difference as a stock to port LJS than having a L61 manifold compared to a stock LSJ, let alone port it. There IS a friggin gain for adding a down-pipe too, and if not, then why does everyone else do it? Because it is a bottleneck.

Before you say having a larger port on the down-pipe side is worse than stock, thats
I wont have the exhaust scavenging affect of a 4:2:1 header, but I will raise my high end and lose a little on the low.

People like Will P. were nice enough to try and help and not bash or come at me in a condescending manner.
People like Will P. are of a higher caliber...



2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

Why not sit here and critique you then?

Ecotec L61 swap (why not just buy a friggin 03?)
Custom shortened RKsport intake (what? suck at shifting?)
SMS 69mm throttle body (now you gone and done it, the velocity of air is slowed with the huge ass TB and you lost your low end, and probably biffed your mids too)
custom modified cobalt OBX header 3" collecter 4-1 (WTF? all high end? What about the 4:2:1 to get your scavenged exhaust to not lose your low end?)
3" piping from header back (Think you drive a V-8? Where's your forced air induction?)
3" magnaflow high flow cat (High flow cat is a marketing scam, my friend owns a muffler shop and says they are all the same)
3" thrush glasspack (Same)
magnaflow muffler (should have gotten a Corsa, the Magnaflow sounds like a Honda)
ARP head studs (Need these to keep all that hp under raps, even though the stock will take 250hp)
Patriot stage 2 head
LZM triflow cams
440cc injectors
Fidanza 7 lbs flywheel
SPEC stage 3 clutch
Autolite Platnium spark plugs (stock heat range) (LOL! Got to brag about plugs even though 90% of the people say platinum plugs don't run well with hot coils like the blaster coil)
RKsport upper motor mount (ac mount removed) (all this work and you could have bought an old 280ZX or an 80's F body with a 383 or bigger)
RKsport lower motor mount
prothane tranny mounts
removed air conditioning (could have kept this is you weren't being a big %$#)
HP Tuners (10-13 hp gains out of an Ecotec for $300+)
MSD 6212 ignition (waste, no hp gains)
MSD blaster coils (waste, no hp gains)

-that is what YOU sound like just so you know before you get all huffy about it.

Myth?

http://www.querycat.com/faq/df21a24b8c9a0baf4a6822fb0c42f4fe

Alrighty, more like you bought a 3" exhaust and don't realize how much better off you'd be with a 2 1/2 for the mods you have.

Quote:

you'll be lucky to see 3hp.

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/build.html

Look it up under performance building, and ask the people on www.cobaltSS.net how much they gained.

I am right...sorry.

Your flipping out like 'Whoa he is talking a whopping 3hp gain from a manifold and maybe 2 whole more out of the down-pipe, he's smoking crack"

Quote:

lmao. you going to tune this setup?

Now your smoking it, I never said I was going to tune my car in this thread.
If I get a CAI, ported TB, and some cams, then yes...

Quote:

people here who have actually done track and dyno testing or who spend countless hours researching the topic.. talking with people who design custom headers for a living, reading books, etc...

More like you have cut and pasted info off a web search.

I love how people like you in the past argued at such things as when I had my catback exhaust upgraded to having all piping up to the downpipe (with cat and resonator) should give no gains at all, and that even though I drive the car everyday and know how she runs, my felt difference is just quote: a butt dyno and no gain has occured, it was all imagined. Absolutely f'ing ludicrous arguments. Makes me wonder why I am listening to your type of help.

Will P. and many others like him at least acknowledge reality such as on this post that this manifold swap will open up the bottleneck in my exhaust and that 3 inch on a NA 4 banger is dumb.

But hey, you know all, taking the pinch out of my exhaust and making it all 2 1/4 has given me nothing, I should have gotten a 3 inch... that is where the gains on a FOUR BANGER are, yeah right!

Annoying isn't it???

All I asked in this thread was:

Quote:

What is the best tool on the downpipe side of the manifold to port it?

What is the best tool for the head side of the manifold to port it?

How do I get into the piping to dremil it out too when it is so hard to get down in there?

I hear, do not touch the head side of the manifold, and I take it to heart.

I hear, the manifold is worthless.

I point out that it has been dynoed by others at 3hp.

I say my gains should be around 5hp total with the downpipe, and I addressed that I am not doing a typical 3+2=5 HP stacker statement. I know the increases will be at certain areas in the lows, mids, and highs and not just add to max output.

So far I see NOTHING wrong, and it is anal, completely anal to argue just for the sake of arguing which is what I see here. I got what I needed from this post so I am abandoning it.






2003 Sunfire with a 2 1/4 inch turbo muffler, 2 1/4 piping to a 2 1/2 inch resonator (bigger to make up for the baffling), a 2 1/4 inch catalytic converter, 2 1/4 inch down-pipe, a ported LSJ manifold, a drop in K&N filtercharger and sports a Bomber body kit with a VIS Invader hood.

mike...you cant take it personally. almost every post on this site has to be sifted through to get the info that you want. Theres all sorts of BS, wrong info, arguing, and flak. you just have to ignore it and take what you need.

OMG

alright asshat... lets dance.

my replies will be bold.

Mike85220 wrote:Why not sit here and critique you then?

Ecotec L61 swap (why not just buy a friggin 03?)

because It costs less to swap the engine in and I'm smart enough to do it, also any others who want to do swaps on the 2000s follow the posts I made on the topic (phlatcav being one of them) so it benefited the community.

Mike85220 wrote:Custom shortened RKsport intake (what? suck at shifting?)

what does an intake have to do with shifting?I did this for space reasons. Removing the entire intake to service the trans fluid or to get to wiring is a bit of a pain

Mike85220 wrote:SMS 69mm throttle body (now you gone and done it, the velocity of air is slowed with the huge ass TB and you lost your low end, and probably biffed your mids too)

low end is for pussies. besides, its a tapered throttle body which is stock diameter at the rear side.. so in reality its the same size as stock. I made a post about it in performance if you search. In all reality, other than the nice sharp edge for merging into the intake pipe, it was a waste of money (I quote the salesperson "yes its a STRAIGHT THRU throttle body".. clearly it isn't lol

Mike85220 wrote:custom modified cobalt OBX header 3" collecter 4-1 (WTF? all high end? What about the 4:2:1 to get your scavenged exhaust to not lose your low end?)

again, low end is for 8 cylinders.. top end is what 4 cylinders do. period. we'll never have big displacement, higher revs and the mods that get you there is what makes higher power. Also, look up the term reversion, you might learn something.

Mike85220 wrote:3" piping from header back (Think you drive a V-8? Where's your forced air induction?)

idk but I trap 97mph and run low 14s... which is as fast or faster than most s/c and low boost turbo setups on this website.

Mike85220 wrote:3" magnaflow high flow cat (High flow cat is a marketing scam, my friend owns a muffler shop and says they are all the same)

I installed this to pass visual inspection for the state of NJ. Before that, I didn't have a cat at all

Mike85220 wrote:3" thrush glasspack (Same)

ever hear an open exhaust? sounds like ass and the measly 1hp doesn't justify the noise

Mike85220 wrote:magnaflow muffler (should have gotten a Corsa, the Magnaflow sounds like a Honda)

you're an idiot.. its a chambered muffler. the only mufflers that sound lousy are fart cans.

Mike85220 wrote:ARP head studs (Need these to keep all that hp under raps, even though the stock will take 250hp)

clamping force is only how much torque you put down on the studs. Factory headbolts are 'torque to yield' which means they're only good once. When you plan on doing more than ONE performance job on an engine, and when stock headbolts are only good once, ARPs are a nice investment since they're reusable.

Mike85220 wrote:
Patriot stage 2 head
LZM triflow cams
440cc injectors
Fidanza 7 lbs flywheel
SPEC stage 3 clutch

nothing smartass to say here eh? no 'lightweight flywheels kill your off the line torque!"

Mike85220 wrote:Autolite Platnium spark plugs (stock heat range) (LOL! Got to brag about plugs even though 90% of the people say platinum plugs don't run well with hot coils like the blaster coil)

again, I did this for stock purposes.. I list EVERYTHING I've done whether its an upgrade or a downgrade.. I don't put it there to brag, I put it there because its on my engine

Mike85220 wrote:RKsport upper motor mount (ac mount removed) (all this work and you could have bought an old 280ZX or an 80's F body with a 383 or bigger)

thank you for your relevent observation. I had a mk3 supra and sold it fyi...

Mike85220 wrote:RKsport lower motor mount
prothane tranny mounts
removed air conditioning (could have kept this is you weren't being a big %$#)

less weight, a/c is for pussies, more room under the engine bay

Mike85220 wrote:HP Tuners (10-13 hp gains out of an Ecotec for $300+)

experience in tuning, figuring out the stock injectors are too small for a good air/fuel ratio (shooting for a 13:1 AFR, the injectors see 105% duty cycle at 6500rpm) solving mysteries of the ecotec ecu, 14.00 second passes with no power adder and a completely stock bottom end... yea, total waste of time.

Mike85220 wrote:MSD 6212 ignition (waste, no hp gains)

launch control, boost related ignition retard (when the time comes) and 'faux' spark advance.. another detail I figured out from a 'wasted' experience with HPtuners

Mike85220 wrote:MSD blaster coils (waste, no hp gains)

external coils just because.. figured my factories wouldn't like the 2 step too much

Mike85220 wrote:-that is what YOU sound like just so you know before you get all huffy about it.

No, thats you searching for something to attack me with because you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to modifying engines. You have no clue about engine dynamics, exhaust flow, or pretty much anything. Its pretty sad...

You sound like a tool. I tried to sway you from wasting time, but you won't listen. Now you're trying to attack one of the fastest all motor jbodies here.. I've done more for this community in one year than you could ever accomplish by porting some POS iron manifold, but hey, we all do what we can.

Quote:

Myth?

http://www.querycat.com/faq/df21a24b8c9a0baf4a6822fb0c42f4fe

Alrighty, more like you bought a 3" exhaust and don't realize how much better off you'd be with a 2 1/2 for the mods you have.

Quote:

you'll be lucky to see 3hp.

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/build.html

Look it up under performance building, and ask the people on www.cobaltSS.net how much they gained.

asking people on cobalt SS is your first mistake... they're worse than the toolbags here (which is where you came from I'm guessing?)

I won't bother to post relevant links on the topic because clearly you don't care about REAL performance. I've posted them up on ecotecforums.com if you're truly interested, go find them. There's no use in sharing GOOD information with you anyway.

Quote:

I am right...sorry.

Your flipping out like 'Whoa he is talking a whopping 3hp gain from a manifold and blahblahblahblah
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blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah




I got what I needed from this post but my car will still be slower than daflyinskwirl anyway.