Alright well I bought the J-tuners underdrive pulley and alternator overdrive pulley from John Benham and they arrived today. I had to use the stock belt which it seems to be fine, no slack that would cause it to come off. no squeeling either. I dont know if the belt he sent with it was actually intended to be used with the underdrive pulley and the stock alternator pulley because the belt he sent would not go on. Either way here is a pic to compare the stock 2200 pulleys to the J-tuners. I am experiencing slight dimming at idle with the headlights and foglights on but no big deal.
2009 Ford Mustang V6
at first glance i thought it was a left to right comparison and i was like what the hell those are tiny, but then i realized it was top to bottom. Looks good though!
HA!! I just posted in another topic that MD-LD9 used that picture that I thought those looked just like the ones I just sold.
That belt was a real PITA to get on, but it will fit. Don't make me road trip down there to put it on for you lol.
Anyways, enjoy that piece of J-body history.
If the crank pulley steel or aluminum?
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
the crank should be aluminum, I used to have a set a while back but sold them...
quick question....
why would you want to run the possibility of having major charging issues running that setup on an OHV? not saying the OHV is worthless or anything, just saying the headaches aren't worth it on an engine that wouldn't make 120whp even WITH these pullies, especially yours being an auto
Riddle me this... riddle me that...
because the 2200 rocks out.....duh.
Because every little bit helps, I'm not running a big audio system, actually not really running any audio system in the car so the car is fine. If I was really concerned about the charging, I could always do the big 4, put a decent battery in the car and it would be absolutely fine. Thanks for the concern though!
2009 Ford Mustang V6
larry- its not about if you have a big stereo or not and i dont care how many charging system mod's you do after you have the issues... they wont help.
i simply had an underdrive crank pulley on the car (mine's a 2.4 tho), along with the big 3 upgrade, optima red top, idle raised 200rpm, AND a 180amp alternator and i was constantly needing to charge the battery as it was always dead. and believe me, i checked everything, grounds... had the alternator and battery checked, all were just fine, even had my brand new starter checked and it was mint.
and before i even had the aem alternator pulley on mine and their wasnt even enough power to keep the car running at idle, it would simply die.
trust me, the auto cars DO NOT like the underdriven BS. im giving you fair warning.
now, im not saying that your going to have issues, just saying you need to be on the look out for them. your car is a base model so you probably dont have all of electrical options like mine does so you may have that on your side.
Riddle me this... riddle me that...
Well the pulleys performance my be slight, they do in fact help. They reduce the rotating mass reguardless (& these ones weigh next to nothing). The LD-9 people I have heard had more problems because of the cheap unbalanced pulleys available for that application.
I can see that there would be more problems with an auto, since they idle slower than the manual cars.
I have heard of lots of people with these pulleys on thier cars (back in the day when they were made), and the only people who had problems were the big stereo guys. AC may also give you problems, but never tried it with those on.
I have heard of lots of 2.4 guys with underdriven problems, but as stated above, most of those were with E-gay knock offs, and not the 2-3x the cost ones like unorthodox.
Either way, please let us know what you think of them.
We REALLY need to find out who the original manufacturer of these is, because those are the same as the Mantapart pullies from WAY BACK. Does anyone have a contact at RK Sport (since they don't sell this version anymore), or does anyone still contact Mike Clements?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
not to rain on your parade but ive had next to them all and they all were the same... charging issues galore
Crank:
Unorthodox underdrive
RSM underdrive
Ebay underdrive
2.3 HO stock size for 2.3 but underdriven for 2.4
alternator:
AEM oversized underdrive
this year i finally saw the light, im running the RSM stock sized crank and mike's stock sized alt. charging issues GONE.
it does need to be pointed out that my 180amp alternator does not put out as much as a stocker at idle, BUT i had the idle raised, and it doesnt matter anyways, i was still having troubles with the stock alternator as well.
ive never tried anything on an OHV motor, so yes.. it could be different. like i said, just trying to get a warning out there. dont want anybody to have any problems, ya' know?
Riddle me this... riddle me that...
Looking at the pics posted I can tell you the problem off the bat. The combination of the under-drive crank pulley and the aluminum alternator pulley is running your alternator at to low of speed to produce sufficient current (Amperage) to keep the car's electrical system (By way of maintaining the battery's charge) voltage high enough to operate all the accessories properly. Here, let me explain how it happened:
The if you measure the difference in size between the factory pulleys alone, and then calculate the difference between them (Divide the larger by the smaller) you will see the drive/driven ratio had between the crank and the alternator. Now, write that number down and set it aside. For now...
Now do the same calculation of just the under-drive pulleys, and compare the result of difference (Ratio) with that found between the factory pulleys. Quite a difference between the two, isn't there? "What's the importance of this?", you ask? Simple: The smaller the ratio between the drive (crank) and driven (alternator) the slower (And closer) the speed of the driven will to that which is driving it. And with the alternator, that's not good.
The factory pulleys are specially matched to drive the alternator at a given speed (X amount of RPMs) in relation to crank speed (Y amount of RPMs) at any given engine speed, including idle, so as to insure the alternator's output is high enough to keep the battery's charge (And system voltage level: 13.5-14.5V, engine running) properly maintained under a full-load situation (Everything electrical on the car on).
The idea of running a under-drive pulley is understandable: Reduce the drive ratio between the crank pulley & the driven accessories to reduce "parasitic" power loss. This is much like down-shifting a gear while climbing a steep hill to get the power to get up it. But, by installing the under-drive crank pulley alone that effected the ratio and slowed the alternator down, causing a drop in output. Especially at idle. When the output drops, the battery isn't getting a sufficient enough charge to maintain system voltage under full system load. And as a result, your headlights (And anything else with lights on the car) dim.The same would result if you just changed the alternator pulley but left the crank pulley stock. So by combining both the under-drive pulleys you got, you just effectively reduced the ratio between the crank & alternator to the point that there's no way it can produce enough charge at idle to keep the system up!
There is a solution: Reinstall your factory alternator pulley. this will help (to a degree) bring the alternator's speed back up a bit. You will need to size a belt to work with it, but in the long run it will be more worth doing than keeping the under-drive pulley on there, which I guarantee will result in a battery failure or replacement as result of insufficient charging. And while you're at it, look for a even smaller diameter replacement for it to help bring the ratio back up to where it should be so your alternator will run at it's proper speed at engine idle.
Okay, so my arrangement of text here isn't perfect. But at least it makes sense, if you read it carefully.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Right, but if put into a performance application....not something you are trying to retain all stock power drains, even that combo produces proper voltage, and amperage to keep the car running fine. When you start turning things on....thats when you run into problems....headlights, fog lights, defrost, stereo...etc.
I ran those and would power my headlights fine, i did not attempt to run any other accessories with them, and knew they wouldn't work for my stereo, and other electronics. However if you are going for performance only.....they are fine.
Apparently Z-yaaa has had some negative underdrive expiriences, but I have not heard the same from the 2200 guys. Perhaps our alts put out more at idle to begin with....
You mean: If only our alternator's had higher output at a given rotor speed to begin with. And by performance I'd imagine you mean full-race. Otherwise, all the things I mentioned still apply. I can see going with a over-sized pulley on a stock-style alternator to try to help keep belts from being thrown in a full-race app, esecially if the engine sees high revs for long periods (NASCAR). But on the street with it and you'll need the alternator with the high enough output rating at lower rotor speeds to match what the car's electrical system calls for under full load at idle. Hmmmm... Maybe if he invested in a after-market modified high-output (200-240A?) alternator. I've seen them made for off-roaders whom have arc-welders built into their rigs under the hood, and they supply all the juice those sparkers could need just fine. There's a thought.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Everything you said was correct, i never said it wasn't.
what I said is that most people with this setup on this engine do not expirience these symptoms on thier cars unless they have a substancial draining electronic accessory.
yeah but john... how many of those cars that have been fine with these pullies were automatics?
Riddle me this... riddle me that...
I am gonna put a tester on it and see what voltage it puts out at idle with the lights and air on max, if it's around 12V it's fine if it's below that then they're coming off.
2009 Ford Mustang V6
It should really be 13.5-14.5V, but it's your ride!
And John: I wasn't arguing with you, just expanding on what you said. And I agree: If 01 was just running the stock headlamps & nighttime running lights, he might not be having a problem. Reason being is the factory standard 55w halogen bulbs they don't really consume 55w's... They only consume 35w! Why? Simple: When sealed halogen headlamps were first introduced to the public their main argument of advantage over tungsten steel filament sealed beams was that halogens produce 1-1/2 times the light for the same amount of current draw. This worried consumers as they feared halogen lights might be too bright and cause glare or blind oncoming drivers, causing an unsafe driving condition. So what was done to gain acceptance? The automotive halogen headlamp & bulb makers overrated what the actual wattage of their bulbs were! That's right, they lied!
How? They simply redesigned the bulbs & lamps to produce the same amount of light as the older tungsten filament design bulbs did. They still produced 1-1/2 times the amount of light for a given amount of current draw as older design bulbs, but now the level of light produced (Not result of visible light hampering tints or anything) matched the level familiar to most American motorists found with 55w tungsten headlamps, while only consuming 35-watts! And since most people only are able to judge how much light is produced by the amount of wattage consumed as opposed to candlepower or lumens (Remember, this was the late-'70s folks! We just started trying to get used to the metric system.) it made sense to advertise their rated output as 55w. And that method, like our adoption of the metric system (Have we really done that yet, or ever will?) still holds to this day.
Now that I got that clear, remember what was just taught here & then factor in the draw that will be seen with fog lamps, which will actually be what they're rated to. And suddenly all the reasons the lamps dim with this pulley combo become a little more apparent, folks.
BTW: Wanna learn more about lighting & add to or improve on what you have now? Goto null
www.danielsternlighting.com and see what all that man has for others to learn. It's that, or try to learn to drive at night like a bat: By sonar!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Oh yeah, one more thing: Has anyone really considered how much current is needed just to actuate the spool-valve shift solenoids found in the typical modern automatic trans? I bet that adds to the load, too.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Zyaaa, I do not know the stats on manuals vs. auto's
01 Cav, I would recommend doing that. If you DO decide to take them off, I can give you plenty of potential buyers.....I STILL have people emailing me about those...
Nickle, I know you weren't arguing, and your points are valid, but not necessarily 100% accurate for this SPECIFIC application.
Well, like anyone who reads this thread, I'm just trying to help by offering up whatever related knowledge I have. And it's good to see we're not on a bad footing either, John. I'll step-back now & wish luck to 01 as I quietly keep watch to see what he finds and decides. Still can't help think running even one of those under-drive pulleys without a corrective other is a mistake. Oh well... C'est la vie (That's how it goes)!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
^^^^ and your knowledge is appretiated. Dont get me wrong. I definitely wasn't trying to pee in your Cheerios.
So let us both indeed see how 01cav does with them.....
