Actually I own a '00 Sonoma 2.2 (basically the same as a S10). It has the LN2 motor. I read alot of threads on here before I decided to make a post. I was debating whether to go the turbo route or not, and just decided its probably going to be too much of a hassle to do the turbo. Plus, to do it "right" it would be best to rebuild the motor for strength anyways. So my plan is hopefully to rebuild the motor for performance and add a little nitrous. I think it would end up being a winter project if all goes well. But I do have some questions.

Performance- I know the Patriot Performance cylinder head is available. I just dont see Patriot offering it anymore on their site. I could be wrong though. If they still offer them...should I go with Stage 2? Or would I be better off buying all the parts I need and sending the head to a machine shop?

Cost- I havent really looked into parts yet. I know id like to get aftermarket rods, pistons, cylinder hone, head work....etc. How much do you think im looking at in parts? 2k....3k?

Experience- Well I never built a car motor before. I do have alot of tools and im sure id have to buy more tools to do it. Im pretty experienced in small engine rebuilds....quads, lawnmowers....etc. Any books I should buy? I already have the Haynes manual, which doesnt cover everything.

Thanks.

I dont know if I can edit my post or not. But I forgot to mention that I do have a '02 Cavalier 2.2 as daily driver.

Anybody?

C'mon, guys... I know you were willing to help me (Before that fight KFLO started...). How 'bout giving this guy a hand, instead of the finger? It is a J-car engine, after all.



















Just in-case nobody responds DMP, I'd try "Search" under any combination of the following: 2.2L, 2200, OHV or LN2. And pay close attention to anything that was posted by: MadJack, OHV Notec or Slowolej. They're the "wizards" or "masters" (if you will) of the LN2 build-up.

I'd give more help but even I have trouble remembering what all is capable of being done for it. But I can tell you this:

The 1.6 ratio rockers meant for the SBC or the ones meant for the 60* V-6 (2.8L-up) can be used providing you use a different set of studs, along with pivot-balls (If applicable) and lock-nuts meant for the engine application for which the rockers are sold for. You'll need metric top-half style studs & nuts for the 60* V-6 ones, and 3/8" top-half studs & nuts for the SBC ones. As for exactly what size or P/N studs you'll need, well I guess you're just gonna hafta search here for them as again I can't remember. I know it was pointed-out in a recent thread here that both I & Notec inputed on.

Best wishes of luck to you on this build & in-case I missed you joining earlier: Welcome to the Organization!


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

And he has a cav daily driver. Sorry dude, I don't know jack**** about ur motor. Best of luck tho

Well, I know it fairly well. And one thing I can tell you is that the only real difference between the applications of it are the manifolds (Intake & exhaust). You know, the parts that actually bolt-to the head. (Just wanted to clarify for those who think the intake manifold is the part that attaches only to the throttle-body. That part is the air-inlet tract!)

The FWD application of the LN2 uses completely different intake & exhaust manifolds than the truck app. The key differences are how the runners for the intake & the "collector" for the exhaust are run location wise. The exhaust on the truck swings towards the rear or trans-mounting face of the block while the FWD pass-car version aims straight-downward.

The intake is a more interesting piece as many here feel that the reason the runners on the truck version roll-over themselves (As opposed to reaching down & up again like on the FWD-car version) is because of "Clearance-issues" had with the mounting of the LN2 in the S-truck, and the throttle-body's position was because of the same. I disagree with that theory, as I've never really seen a lack of clearance along-side the block in the truck app for the runners to reach down into. I think it was more of a matter of the truck application of the engine getting a design of a manifold that employed longer runners than the FWD-car version did to help the engine produce more torque at a lower RPM (Hey, it was going-into a half-ton pick-up, for God's sake!) and that in there caused a clearance problem.

The two intakes have their tuning peculiarities too, in that the FWD-car version produces more horsepower but the truck version produces more torque. Why, aside from the packaging problems, did GM make to manifolds for the same engine that were so different? My theory is this: Most of the FWD-cars that will see this engine installed (J-cars) will have it mated with a 3-spd auto-trans, and that means it will see fairly high RPMs on the highway. So a manifold that makes the most horsepower in that operating range is best. While in the truck it would be mated with an over-drive auto-trans & would see a heavy loads on average, not counting the higher weight of the truck over that of the J-car, and lower RPMs on the highway. So a manifold that produced better low-end torque would be desirable in that application. Plus GM had always been cheap about this engine, and they saw the idea of grinding two different cam profiles on top of having to different intake & exhaust manifolds as too costly. I think...

So basically any manifold you see listed for this engine for a particular app, it's ment to work with this engine in that application. Anything outside of those pieces can be used on this engine app regardless.

If you need more (or nobody else responds favorably) I'll be back with more to help you. Later!



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

I'm back! And it looks like you haven't gotten any feedback yet from anyone else. Don't worry, 'Dimer is here to help his fellow S-truck owners with J-body hearts.

Okay, first off the thread I spoke of earlier is titled: 1992 OHV Rocker Arms Conversion (<-THIS IS NOT A LINK! I can't seem to master the "linking"-bit on this site, so...) In it you will find a working link posted by LN2-wiseman MadJack that will lead you to a thread that he himself started & fully detailed on how to install 1.6 rockers on the LN2. Any questions regarding that mod odds are can & will be answered by what's found on those two threads.

Now, since I have that outta the way, lets move on to some simple things that can be done to help the Double-Deuce.

Alotta guys here (Or on any engine performance building site, for that matter) will look into installing a larger throttle-body in attempt to increase power. This is somewhat of a misnomer, as a larger throttle-body will only help increase power if the engine has been modified to increase the amount of air it uses. If that part has been done (By way of larger cams, increased valve lift, larger ports & specially-designed manifolds to get the gases in & out, not to mention forced-induction), then the stock TB becomes restrictive & holds-back the amount of air the engine may be allowed to breathe. Only then is a larger TB justifiably helpful.

Got all that? Good! Now what do (Or use, as the case may be) to install one:

The simplest (And cheapest) way to go is to use the TB for a 2.3L Quad4. It's been done many times by others here and is practically a direct bolt-on. But, if you do use one (On your 2200, of course) the linkage will need to be reworked to work with it (along with the cable-pull cam on the TB needing to be changed, IIRC). Plus, there's a small "lip" found just inside of the bore of the intake manifold just "below" where the TB mates-up that will need to be ground down (This is where a Dremel-tool & a set of plastic-grinding bits is good to have!), other wise it will act like a restrictor-plate against the larger TB, hurting airflow & nullifying the effect of installing it.

That's all I have for you now. I'll leave you to do your searches along with this tid-bit of wisdom: Freeing-up the breathing-in of your engine is good, but what good is it to do so if you don't increase the amount of air available for it to breathe? Just something to think about. Later!



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Thanks for all the info Nickelin Dimer! IIRC, I read somewhere that the Malibu TB is a direct fit without any mods. Not sure on the year though. Ill have to look into it. I did do some searching on here and found some good info. I think I might just buy a used cylinder head and mod it. So then ill have a little less down time. For a header, Al's header (which isnt available anymore) and Kamikaze are the best from what I hear. What about getting the stock header extruded? and then maybe fab. a better downpipe.

Also, what years are the same for the cylinder head?

'98-up are the years you want to look for. Patriot sells prepared ones in (IIRC) three different performance trims. And I suppose you could get the stock exhaust manifold extrude-honed, but somehow I think the cost will probably be as much as a header when it's back in your hands (Shipping & all, that is). It's good to see you found some useful info searching around here, and I hope you have success with it all. But before I go, there's just a few more tid-bits I'd like to leave you with that you may not (for all I know) have found-out about yet:

If you're going to rev the LN2 higher than average (for stock), without a doubt do the LN2/LT-1 hybrid lifter build. It's simply taking the springs from an LT-1 lifter & installing them into the LN2 lifter body, reusing all the other LN2 lifter's parts.

Base-circle of the LN2's cam is the same as a SBC's, so when you decide to do a regrind (Sorry, no new cam blanks available from anyone to do a fresh grind on) you have a large selection of already existing lobe profiles to choose from. Just don't get radical with it & you'll be okay.

Cranks for the LN2 are a incompatible between the pre-'98 and the post-'97 engines (At least with the ECM's base ignition timing programing left untouched) as the cast-on Crank Position Sensor reluctor-wheel's notches were re-clocked, to a more advanced position, to help aid fuel economy by causing the injectors to fire sooner so the fuel-spray would occur when the intake-valve was opening (As opposed to when it was closing, like with the pre-'98 clocking).

This is about all I have to give at this time, and I'll bet you may already know some of what I just mentioned from your findings in this forum along with a whole lot more, so I leave you now & only ask that if & when you do learn what year & engine model that Malibu TB is on, please let me know. Good luck & happy wrenching!



P.S.: Spread the word about this place to your fellow Double-Deuce 'dimers, as I'm sure they could use the help this place provides for LN2 builders too! Later!



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

wow....that was WAY to much to read.....give me a cliff notes version, I will try to help you out.

(Heh, heh, heh.) Guess I did get a little over-zealous in trying to help a fellow dimer. But can you blame me? There's so little known & shared about the LN2 on s10planet.com that I was glad to be referred by a local j-org member I met at a local cruise scene who has one (Thanks again, Juicin'!).

But still, you're right John. Perhaps if some of the other LN2-builders here were kind enough to post a list of links to other threads about building-up the LN2 on this thread, maybe all the other "planet" members who are sure to visit after DMP tells them what he found here will be glad to find a simple list of said links as to what they can do to & for their Double-Deuce'd dimes. There are allot more fellow LN2 owners out there who'd love the help, guys. And the more we (and they) get together about this engine, the less alone we'll all feel in our efforts with it. Whadaya say... Unite with other J-car hearted guys, even if they don't have a J-car, for the sake of common interest? Sounds like a good idea to me!




Go beyond the "bolt-on".

maybe its you just want it to be different from the rest of the S trucks but i would spend the money on displacement! there are tons of kits to swap a 350 and way more performance available. Thats the route i would take


Burn some dust-Eat my rubber!!!!

Not all of us automatically option for that route, vncj96. And with the way fuel is getting to be, getting more from less is starting to sound more-&-more like a good idea. Remember: We all want to enjoy our vehicles with as few worries as possible, and the less we hafta worry about fuel consumption just driving around town the better.

Argue what mileage a V-8 dime will get if you want, but that's usually out on the highway... not around town. And besides, the pumping-losses of a well built & tuned 4-cyl producing about the same amount of power even a mild V-8 are way less, and that's part of what really lends to better fuel economy. Not to mention the lack of weight-penalty that would be had on economy, braking & handling from staying with the 4-cyl as opposed to droppin'-in a heavy, available-for-low-bucks iron V-8 long-block (Aluminum heads optional as affordable).

Now, since you've had your say, unless you (or anyone else) are here to help by offering advice that works within the parameters set here, please don't comment. We've got enough problems on this forum taking heat from the flaming cammer-guys give us. Thank you.




Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Yeah, with gas prices as they are a v8 swap gets less appealling, especially for a DD.

Patriot made a decent head, although for much less, you can always do some porting on your own. There are several threads here demonstrating HOW, and how NOT to do it, depending on application. Several companies sell oversized valves, if that is what you decide to do.


Also, adding some higher ratio roller rockers, chromoly pushrods, and a cam tuned to your engine would help out a lot. Everything but the cam can be found here.
Cam, you CAN get one from here, but they are not the advertised billet core. You are better off getting a regrind from Crane.

Even though the cams are kinda shakey, IPP does have good prices on the rest of the goodies, forged bottom end components, etc.

They also sell ARP head & main studs, but they can be had for cheaper directly from ARP.

I spent about $1200 on the internals, cometic gasket, and other engine rebuild items, I sent about $700 at the machine shop, and a lot of money buying parts off of org members to get my stuff together. I did as much work as possible myself, both to cut costs, and for the expirience.

The LN2 is a fairly expensive motor to build just because of the lack of aftermarket support, but well worth it in the end, especially if you plan on boosting.

This is the thread on how to get higher ratio rockers in which i will be doing here soon! I'll post more links as i find them.

rocker arm conversion
Madjack build guide and links
alex richards LN2 build
LSX spring article


Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, July 08, 2008 8:44 AM

I know the displacement option has been tossed around earlier, but I thought I remembered seeing a stroker kit for the S10, that would take it from a 2.2 to a 2.4L. That might be something to look into, or not.

I'm all for building up the 2.2, as my registry will show. If you already have top feed injectors, that should be easy to upgrade, if you wanted to go the turbo route. Pre-1998 LN2 motors had side feed, and it's pretty difficult to put top feeds in those.
The best bang for your buck is some rocker arms that go to a true 1.6 ratio, and a nicely matched Camshaft. This holds true if you go boost or not, since it will help increase airflow into the engine. As Nickelin Dimer mentioned earlier, a good throttle body to go with these helps. I've read a lot on here that the head itself can be pretty restrictive. I P&P my own spare head first, before I got the patriot head, and i'd say it's about the same performance wise, minus the many days and weeks spent porting if you do it yourself.

If you have to focus on three areas, i'd say start with those, they will give you the biggest result for the amount of work; head work, rocker rollers, and a camshaft. Obviously, if you want to run nitrous, i'd probably want to put forged pistons in, and that begin a whole nother build.

Also, from a tuning perspective, mod are only as good as the tune on the cars computer, and to take full advantage of those mods, you will probably want to see if HP Tuners(software app to change the computer settings) supports the S10, like it does the j-body. It may not, but if it does, i'd highly recommend that as well.

Oh yah, forgot to mention, if you're doing the work yourself, the camshaft is a PITA to change, just so you know. it's burried deep in the block. Some say you can get to it through the passenger side spash gaurd, with the wheel off, but i've always done it with the engine completely out of the car just cause i was doing other work that required the engine to be out.

Oh, wait a sec, this is a S-10, RWD, so the engine will be rotated. You may still have a clearance issue removing the camshaft, with it hitting the radiator, or a/c grill. It may actually be easier because of the engine being rotated and all.

VTLoki wrote:I know the displacement option has been tossed around earlier, but I thought I remembered seeing a stroker kit for the S10, that would take it from a 2.2 to a 2.4L. That might be something to look into, or not.

I

The kit your thinking of was from 2200dragraceevolution.com........The kit was a huge flop and didn't work well. The company is no longer in business, and if my memory serves me correctly the 2200 2.2 has already been stroked from 2.0

You are correct, JUCNBST. The LN2 is a factory "stroked" version of the '87-up OHV 2.0L that preceded it, which itself was a re-vamped version of the '83-'86 OHV 2.0L, which was a bored & stroked version of the '82-only OHV 1.8L. Very few parts actually interchange between all of them, even though they are of the same base engine design (Kinda like the pre-'87 & '87-up SBC & the LT-1), so thorough research & consideration needs to be done by anyone looking to build-up any one of them.

And speaking of consideration, here's some very few consider:

The '00-'02 ('03?) LN2-powered S-trucks with the 8th VIN character being a "5" instead of a "4" that were built after December '99 are factory prepared flex-fuel trucks. That menas all the fuel-system & engine component changes that are needed to run ethanol are already done. Now, all arguments against ethanol aside, one thing rings very true for vehicles that run it: An engine that's fully optimized (Prepped) to run on "E" makes loads of power. And since all the other stuff needed to run it has already been done, doesn't make sense to build the engine with a high enough dynamic-compression (pistons & turbo!) to take advantage of it?

Lord knows I've got a '00 LN2 sitting aside that's waiting to go into my '99, but I have considered building it with 10:1 slugs & a turbo pushin' about 5psi (That's about where stock-piston'd turbo'd LN2s are running it at on premium gasoline on the street, isn't it?) to maximize the efficiency of running "E" even when it isn't under boost, just by maximizing the static compression for the octane. Heck... I could even run 9.5:1 static & run it year-round on E-85 just to compensate for the percentage change done during winter to improve "light-off", and just adjust the boost accordingly for summer or winter mixes (Hey, if we weren't willing to make adjustments we wouldn't be willing to do mod-work to our rides, right?). And with the latent-heat abilities or E, adding a inter-cooler would be optional (Depending on desired boost level, of course).

Even in N/A form you could go crazy with static-compression (Say, 12.5:1?) and with a moderately-big cam run without worries. Now, since this opens such an interesting door for those who have flex-fuel vehicles, wouldn't it make sense for those who want more from what they have to "step-through"? I don't know about you, but I think I'd like to "take the red pill" by going "green"!

Or was it the other pill? Ah heck, you know what I mean!

I hope this lil' entry of mine is useful to you, DMP (And very useful at that!). As always, I wish you good-luck & hopes for happy wrenching. Later!



Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Thanks for all the help. Im starting to feel more confident about this "build". I didnt think many parts were available for this engine, but it seems like I wont need too many (if any) custom parts. I havent thought about a V8 swap at all because this will be the first time actually rebuilding a car engine and honestly a swap like that (done right) would probably cost more to build the LN2. You can get junkyard V8's easily and cheap, but it doesnt guarantee reliablity. Im not looking to build a 10 second truck....if I was id buy something else. I just want something a little faster, reliable (truck has 160k+ miles on it), and most of all the experience to work on an engine. I dont see how that could be something to argue with.

Nickelin Dimer, so its possible that my truck might be flex-fuel? Interesting.... I dont know every little detail about my truck yet, but thats why im here to learn.

There was somebody that ran a turbo at 5 psi for a few months, then went to 9 and 10 psi with stock internals. Then later tore down the engine and there were no signs of damage. He just recently rebuilt the engine with aftermarket internals and ran 14.1 @ 99 mph at 11 psi. He said it still needs to tune it and get better traction. Definately not bad for a truck that weighs about 3000 lbs.

VTLoki, HPTuners does offer stuff for the S10 trucks. But I think id rather save a little money and get the computer tuned from wait4meperformance.com.

not a fan of mail order tunes personally.

John Benham wrote:not a fan of mail order tunes personally.

Well this company can actually do some pretty good tunes. I know a few people that got it done with good results. Id actually just want them to remove the speed limiter or raise it (im not sure which one they do). I think the speed limiter is lower than the Cavalier. Thats all I would get done.

DMP wrote:

John Benham wrote:not a fan of mail order tunes personally.

Well this company can actually do some pretty good tunes. I know a few people that got it done with good results. Id actually just want them to remove the speed limiter or raise it (im not sure which one they do). I think the speed limiter is lower than the Cavalier. Thats all I would get done.

108 tsl on the Cavy, 97-98 tsl on the Dimer


==============================================================

Yes, noob, the search button is for you...

Well there you go. lol I dont think id be hitting the speed limiter in the 1/4 mile anyways even with the mods I plan on doing.

If you don't mind spending some money for it I'd recommend trying to get ahold of the newest alldata.
Are you trying to build the truck for speed or strength?


_________________________