Hello everyone, since I just finished with my new exhaust piping I have been looking for a header. I found a seller in ebay here in Mexico and he sells one for my sunfire 2000 2.4L for $150 dls. But he says I still need to wrap it with asbestos. As far as I know asbestos is toxic and causes cancer... The reason he gives for wrapping it with asbestos is that 90% of the cars have the headers in front of the motor but that our cars have it behind the motor , therefore, it is necessary to wrap it with asbestos to protect it from the heat. Is he nuts or is this a normal procedure?
What material should the header be made of?
There is another seller that has a OBX header for $250 dls and he hasnt said anything about wrapping it with asbestos, should I go with this brand? I have read in the forum that OBX is better than pacesetter.
How much of a problem is it to install a header in our cars? I would take it to a muffler installer to do this but just to have an idea of what he should charge...
Finally, as far as I know dynos are illegal in Mexico so there is not way I can get my HPs for sure. So just to have an idea, how much HP and Torque will I gain by installing a header, I changed my exhaust piping to 2.25in removed the muffler (I have 3 glasspacks lol) and by getting a CAI ?
Thanks!
Anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac...
header wrap is what he is referring to. you can wrap it but you don't have to. kind up to you. i also wouldn't say OBX is better than pacesetter either but i don't personally like either header. you won't see much of a gain either. maybe with full exhaust and CAI 7-10hp.
Also why is a dyno illegal in mexico?
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Primer Counts as Custom Paint Right?
BTW: This is my Sig.
You will want to use header wrap, not asbestos. Good luck even trying to buy asbestos any more. On that part your seller is full of it. He is right about wrapping it for heat reasons though but it isn't to protect the header, it's to keep the heat off everything else.
Dynos aren't illegal in Mexico LOL....just really hard to find since there isn't really a big tuner scene in Mexico and other central American countries. The tuner culture is more a thing of highly developed and specialized economies it seems. Japan, USA, most of Europe, and some of the middle east all have tuning cultures. Africa and Central and South America...not so much from what I've found.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
depending on the wrap it could start to look like crap rather quickly. i would suggest going to a reputable place and get the header ceramic coated. Very rugged and well worth the money, and its not to expensive either.
horsepower is the force that determines at what speed you hit the wall, torque is the force that determines how far you take the wall with you after you hit it.
If this car is a driver, it's far better for the longetivity of the header to have it coated with a heat-reflective ceramic coating. Wraps do the same, but they also wick moisture from the air & whatever water splashes up on them, causing the header to rust prematurely. So pass on the wrap & see someone like HPC (High Performance Coatings) about getting it coated.
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160280458906 I baught that one for my 2000 2.4. It had a best offer and offered $60 for it and got it for like $94. It is the same header as the obx one on my buddys 2.4. It fit perfect, flange sealed right up, i have new 2.5 exhaust all the way back with no flex pipe with no problems at all for a month. Who ever says it's cheap made this one wasn't at all. The welds were perfect and weighed a good bit also. Only thing is you have to use a 2000 gasket or weld the egr hole shut like it did.
Also i have no heat at all hardly except the pipes getting hot so i wouldn't really worry about it.
^^^ even if its ceramic coated?
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
z yaaaa wrote:^^^ even if its ceramic coated?
Yes. Header wrap is not as good as all V8 guys want you to think it is.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
explain with proof?
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
z yaaaa wrote:explain with proof?
What do you want proof of? That header wrap causes premature rusting or it's not the greatest thing in the world like most V8 guys seem to think?
Examples of the damage that wrapping a header can cause is pretty easy to find online.
As was stated before....header wrap holds in and absorbs moisture. No normal steel can hold up to water forever. All it takes is one flaw in the coating for the water to get into and start eating away. Coated headers are definitely less susceptible to rusting out but they aren't perfectly coated every time. Plus there is absolutely no reason to wrap a coated header.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
exactly... ceramic coating on 'normal steel' protects it. so whats the problem? even IF there is a flaw in the coating, just that little TINY place would be a problem. it would take a very long time to eat away ceramic coating. hence why its done.
too me it sounds like something you've just heard, not experienced first hand. whats this whole 'v8 guys' thing anyway? you've hung around a lot of them and they say use it but you've hung around 4 cylinder guys and they say dont?
not saying i would do it personally, just trying to get the facts straight here. and if its the way it is, fine... i just would like proof.
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
z yaaaa wrote:exactly... ceramic coating on 'normal steel' protects it. so whats the problem? even IF there is a flaw in the coating, just that little TINY place would be a problem. it would take a very long time to eat away ceramic coating. hence why its done.
too me it sounds like something you've just heard, not experienced first hand. whats this whole 'v8 guys' thing anyway? you've hung around a lot of them and they say use it but you've hung around 4 cylinder guys and they say dont?
not saying i would do it personally, just trying to get the facts straight here. and if its the way it is, fine... i just would like proof.
I never said that a coated one would rot out immediately. If you get rust in one spot it WILL spread, coating or not. The coating goes over the metal, not into it to change the molecular structure to prevent rust.
And yes I have hung out with a ton of V8 guys who all seem to love it and most 4 cylinder people I know hate it. It just one of those weird phenomenons of the car culture.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
z yaaaa wrote:exactly... ceramic coating on 'normal steel' protects it. so whats the problem? even IF there is a flaw in the coating, just that little TINY place would be a problem. it would take a very long time to eat away ceramic coating. hence why its done.
too me it sounds like something you've just heard, not experienced first hand. whats this whole 'v8 guys' thing anyway? you've hung around a lot of them and they say use it but you've hung around 4 cylinder guys and they say dont?
not saying i would do it personally, just trying to get the facts straight here. and if its the way it is, fine... i just would like proof.
after a little bit of digging thru google;
stahl headers wrote:
Should I use a Header Wrap?
NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is nothing that will damage a header faster than the use of a header wrap, other than attacking it with a hammer or shot gun. As advertised, these wraps do keep the majority of exhaust gas temperatures within the header. The result is the wraps will prohibit the header tubing from cooling properly. If you reduce the ability for headers to dissipate adequate heat properly, the result will be premature failure of the metal. Depending upon the application use and temperatures involved, the life can be reduced to only a few hours. We consider exhaust wraps to be the header manufacturer's best friend.
If engine compartment temperatures are an issue, the best solution is to use insulation materials on the sheet metal. One alternative in some applications is to build a box around the headers and actually duct outside air into the box. In some applications ceramic coatings have been known to help (see notes on coatings above). Insulating any components that may be sensitive to heat, such as wiring, fuel & oil lines, etc., are a better option.
forums.off-road.com/toyota wrote:
A friend of mine and I purchased a Doug Thorley header for our two trucks at the same time. I had a great deal of trouble installing my Thorley header as I had to heavily modify the header to get it into my chassis.
My friend, on the other hand, installed his in only a few hours with absolutely no problems. Contrary to the original Thorley instructions, he decided to wrap his header in a header wrap in an effort to keep the underhood temperatures cooler and to gain some extra power from the scavenging of the heat. Recently he had developed an exhaust leak. Thnking one of the gaskets had blown he decided to pull the header off for inspection before changing any gaskets. Bad news, after removing the caked on header wrap, he saw that the header tube from cylinder #3 had a long crack in it. The header color looks rusty brown and the header only has about 6 months of use or 10,000 miles on it.
He is very upset at his own stupidity, got the crack welded up and re-installed the header without the header wrap. His header now looks like the header wrap has aged the header considerably. Even though my header was cut, re-welded, bent, and surfaced, it looks a hell of a lot better than my friends which is the same age as mine with about the same mileage on it. My header is lightly blued with some orange tinge. My friend's header is rusty brown, has a raspy sound as if the piping has lost some of its thickness and has a void warranty because he wrapped the header which is what Thorley warns against doing. Live and learn.
...and at the very least, safety.
sccaforums wrote:First hand experience on our FSAE car; Major oil leak soaked the wrap. We never noticed until it caught fire. Unfortunately the wrap prevented us from putting the fire out. Luckily, do to the design of the car we got away with relatively little damage despite having to let it burn for several minutes.
moral of the story? get ceramic coating. wrap your knees, elbows, and any other joints bothering you but keep that @!#$ away from your header.
if you get a ceramic coated header, why wrap it? makes no sense.
Hypsy (TRU TurboSport Cav) wrote:I never said that a coated one would rot out immediately. If you get rust in one spot it WILL spread, coating or not. The coating goes over the metal, not into it to change the molecular structure to prevent rust.
actually, you couldn't be more wrong. contrary to what you have heard, the coatings are sprayed on very evenly and no spots are missed, with jet-hot anyway.
they heat up the part baking it and the coating SOAKS INTO the metal, similar to that of powdercoating, although i do not know if they positively charge the 'ceramic spray' and such like they do with the powder, im thinking not but you never know.
this video helps explain, although i still do not know
exactly how the process is done. couldnt find a damn thing on wikipedia, and google was about as useless as tits on a bor.
show me proof that header wrap will rust out a ceramic coated header, please. and truth be told, id love to see proof that it even causes non-coated stuff to rust worse then it would just hanging in the elements normally.
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
my question is this... if it rots out headers so badly as claimed, why is it made?
and dont get me wrong fellas, i would never use that stuff, i would choose ceramic coating over it 100%
id just like to keep things as fact, so much stuff is thrown around here thats hear-say and second hand knowledge its not funny.
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
z yaaaa wrote:my question is this... if it rots out headers so badly as claimed, why is it made?
and dont get me wrong fellas, i would never use that stuff, i would choose ceramic coating over it 100%
id just like to keep things as fact, so much stuff is thrown around here thats hear-say and second hand knowledge its not funny.
At this point your just looking for a fight. While that would normally appeal to me I have better things to do today than argue about a stupid thing like header wrap.
Good day.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
I'll bite.
zyaaa wrote:my question is this... if it rots out headers so badly as claimed, why is it made?
the same reason useless medications are made, tire flys, novelty items, cold air intakes, and other useless garbage for any market thats out there...to make money.
People buy into the hype that its a cheaper solution to a problem, and go for it.
and yet... still no proof.
its going to take more then one header company ('no name' btw) hell bent on giving header wrap a bad name and a 4X4 mud bogger that sees more weather then grizly adams to convince me that its a completely useless and junk product.
and fyi.. tire flys do their job, intakes do their job, and novelty items do their job. just because
you think they are useless, doesn't mean other people do.
and really... header's get extremely hot. how would any moisture get trapped? it would steam off immediately.
ive been reading through other forums as you have, the majority seem to say that header wrap rusted out their un-coated header's over the course of a few years. a FEW YEARS. your lucky to get an uncoated header to last a few years daily driving in the weather either way.
but, ive also read that why cheap out with header wrap, sure.. get stuff coated, IMO its the only way to fly. my rk sport coated header is going on 7 years old now and its doing just fine. no rust whatsoever.
HOWEVER, i could see wrapping a
coated header if it indeed actually helped even more. have no found any proof here to see if it actually does or not though.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:13 PM
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
i can take some pics of my RKS ceramic coated header that i wrapped. its pretty bad. The amazing part is that it was fine until i wrapped it. When i replaced my motor, i thought, hey i'll wrap the header since im here. less than 2 years later i had an exhaust leak. pulled the header and it looked like it was going to fall apart at the collector.
pay for the shipping and i'll give it to you. Im sure you can tell much more first hand than with the pics I can take.
no, by all means... take pics.
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
z yaaaa wrote:and yet... still no proof.
its going to take more then one header company ('no name' btw) hell bent on giving header wrap a bad name and a 4X4 mud bogger that sees more weather then grizly adams to convince me that its a completely useless and junk product.
I'll bite.
Edelbrock
WARNING: The use of "Thermal Wrap" will void the warranty on your Edelbrock Headers. Those product will cause excessive heat and moisture buildup resulting in corrosion and failure of the header.
Hooker Headers
QUESTION Should I use exhaust wrap on my Hooker Headers?
ANSWER If your vehicle is being run on the street or for extended periods of time, you should never wrap headers. Exhaust wraps insulate the exhaust too much and the exhaust temperature is raised to a level that fatigues the header material causing cracks. If under hood temperatures are an issue, we recommend using Hooker’s Metallic Ceramic Thermal Barrier Coating. Our coating is applied inside and out. It is corrosion and heat resistant up to 1600°F. It also reduces under hood temperatures and has a polished high luster finish. Holding exhaust temperatures inside the header increases the exhaust gas velocity producing more horsepower. You can purchase any Hooker header with our Metallic Ceramic Thermal Barrier Coating by adding a -1 to the end of the part number.
Headmans...DO NOT WRAP YOUR NEW HEADERS! The use of thermal wraps will drastically shorten the life of your Headers, and will void the Hedman “Lifetime Guarantee”. The use of thermal wraps will drastically shorten the life of your Headers, and will void the Hedman “Lifetime Guarantee”.
You can not argue they are the big three of header companies.
z yaaaa wrote:and fyi.. tire flys do their job, intakes do their job, and novelty items do their job. just because you think they are useless, doesn't mean other people do.
and really... header's get extremely hot. how would any moisture get trapped? it would steam off immediately.
Please see above links.
z yaaaa wrote:ive been reading through other forums as you have, the majority seem to say that header wrap rusted out their un-coated header's over the course of a few years. a FEW YEARS. your lucky to get an uncoated header to last a few years daily driving in the weather either way.
From Edelbrock on CATALOG #65912
(Ceramic-Coated) & 65913 (Ti-Tech Coated)
WARNING: The use of "Thermal Wrap" or any aftermarket coating process will void the warranty on your
headers. Those products can cause excessive heat and moisture buildup resulting in corrosion and early
failure of the system.
z yaaaa wrote:but, ive also read that why cheap out with header wrap, sure.. get stuff coated, IMO its the only way to fly. my rk sport coated header is going on 7 years old now and its doing just fine. no rust whatsoever.
HOWEVER, i could see wrapping a coated header if it indeed actually helped even more. have no found any proof here to see if it actually does or not though.
Would wrapping a header help. Yes,
ThermoTec wrote:Wrapping the headers maintains exhaust gas heat within the header. This translates into more exhaust flow due to maintaining exhaust temperatures as it flows out of the engine. By improving the scavenging of spent gases, the engine breathes more efficiently. This reduces contamination of gases, thus allowing the engine to develop more power.
Would wrapping a ceramic coated or jet coated header help, yes, but is it worth premature failure of that nice ceramic or jet coated header.
NO
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
finally someone that has proof.
thanks for clearing up the confusion.
In the end, we're all just chalk lines on the concrete.. drawn only to be washed away.
Brad your welcome buddy.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
