Ok when i did my 2.4 swap in my sunfire. Before i had all the power steering lines hooked up. I took it up the road and back and it ran pretty good. I know it wasn't good for the pump being dry but o well. Now when i hooked up the lines and topped it off i noticed pretty decent difference in the performance. So i've been debating to run no power steering. although the more i thought about how hard it was to steer with 235/45/r17's until you got moving was a major pitty. For a DD i wouldn't be able to do it.

So then i thought about electric power steering. Googled it and came up with this: Toyota mr-2 electirc pump on a jeep

I then started reading other things wheere people were using them on honda's and other sorts of things. The info i gathered: The pump will put out 2000psi when at full load at 60 amps. but then that guy posted also that is only 60 amps when at zero rpms(not sure how that is but more searching) Then i found where people were using the computer and sensors so they could control the speed of the pump based on vss. The vss in the mr2's is 4 pulses per revolution. So in turn the pump wouldn't really need 60 amps all the time and last longer since the speed is limited by the vss and how much you turn the wheel.

Any way i found this all where a guy put it on his s-10 with no problems,lists all the difference between year, and wiring diagrams. s10 power steering and diagrams

Also from my gathering is that it doesn't have a reservoir. Well i though why not use the lt1 trans am and camaros remote reservoir and mount it somewhere around the shock tower.. What do you all think???

I remember how one of the french auto-makers was toying with the idea of electromotive steering effort assist back in the mid-'80s... I wonder if they ever succeeded?

As for the 60A @ 0rpm, that's how many amps the motor will draw when it's trying to turn from a dead stop under full load (Full available/rated voltage & amperage going to it with rotational resistance level so high the motor won't turn). The slower a motor turns, the more amperage (for a given voltage) it needs to do so.

It's also when a motor produces the most torque it can (electric motor torque output is linear: 0rpm=highest, Max RPMs=lowest). But, the harder a motor must work to turn something, the more amperage it consumes in it's efforts. This is why you'll see some full-race cars running two batteries: So there's enough available amperage to overcome the turning-resistance of trying to crank-over a high compression and/or heavily supercharged engine.

Or, the batteries may be wires in series (as opposed to parallel) to increase the available voltage so less total amperage is needed to do it, since the higher the operating voltage = less total amperage needed to do the work. Hence why you don't see 6v systems in anything on wheels built after '64.

As for this idea, well... Cummins is currently playing with the idea of using heat collected from a diesel engine's EGR cooler to make steam (in a closed system) to be used to turn some of the "parasitic" accessories found on a engine to gain fuel mileage, so it seems worth tryin'.


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

This isn't electrical assit. It is a actual electric power steering pump. It uses sensors if using the computer to control the speed of the pump at certian speeds and also assists if oversteer. But thanks for the info on the motor specs.

But when i do my motor build if i stay with the ld9. I'm going to try to get rid of parasitic drag. Lightened crank and alternator pulleys,Get rid of the a/c since i don't need it to begin with, Remove the balance shafts, Get rid of power steering but would still like to have it some how( the reason for the post). And do something with the rods since i might boost later i was going to go h-beams but i think for the weight/ over strength is a little much. Maybe a custom set of i-beams or lighten the rods if at all possible.

our Saturn Vue has it and it's the biggest POS I've ever had to deal with steering wise. comparing between the fluid style power steering and the electric on our Vue, I would much rather go with the fluid. if you don't want that extra little bit on the engine to assist you that extra amount, grow some muscles.

Blown Phoniex wrote:This isn't electrical assit. It is a actual electric power steering pump. It uses sensors if using the computer to control the speed of the pump at certian speeds and also assists if oversteer. But thanks for the info on the motor specs.

I know, I was just speaking of something this thread reminded me of. I've read both articles you linked & I may try it too on my LN2-powered S-truck, since I got it for mileage & it could use all the help it can get to achieve high numbers. And: You're welcome!


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Brad i've never drove a vue or aynthing. also i don't know how it is setup. If it is actually elictric assist or a electric pump like i'm speeking of. I do know for a fact that there is people using this pump from more research to run there brakes and power steering. I also read up on where some 4x4 guys were using it with 38's and was talking about using it to run there winch.

It's not like i'm weak or anything either. The fact is my sunfire with no power steering steers way harder than my buddy's two civic that doesn't. Not sure why that is but it does.
The only reason i would like to have something at a stand still is the fact that where i park at work people like to park all around you where you got to pull up back up and such. Also it is the same way when you go to the store people like to get right beside you in park spots. If i could get a little movement going while turning the wheels it isn't so bad though.

My HHR has electric steering, so does the Equinox, Solstice, Sky, Cobalt, G5, G8, bunch of models really those just happen to be right at the fore-front of my mind.

A Little reading if you so desire.

Adapting it to another model is all you dude but this might help you a lil.

I think this is a great idea but.... electricity isn't free either. The added draw of power on the alternator will probably equal close to the same amount of parasitic loss as running the pump. So in my mind switching to an electric pump for performance is kinda trading straight across. What you gain by taking off the pump you lose on the extra power needed to spin the alternator.

I see potential performance-wise in a more indirect way: Going electric means the pump can be almost anywhere, thus freeing up space in the engine bay. It would also be a cure for the hex drive issues that LD9 owners have when using certain cams. It would also be good in that a switch and relay could be wired in so that the pump could be shut off when its not needed/wanted... like the drag strip when you don't really need it but want to get rid of as much parasitic loss as possible.

Thanks chm for that info but to adapt something like that i see beign a little hard.

Sleepy i do see your point about the added draw on the alternator. But in all honesty i don't see the alternator pulling as much power as any belt or the ld9 power steering pump. The motor is having to push the power steering fluid the whole time. Which in turn i believe it would be for every 1000rpms the load would be doubled on the engine robbing power.

Also after reading up on the motor used and with dimers info. The pump will basically draw the most amps at idle when the wheels would be the most harder to turn. Which in all honesty i don't see being over 40 amps. Which it might not even be that. After that the more the wheels are easier to turn the less power draw. So i believe you gain some power, not as much as with no pump though.

Also on the location that is a plus. And for the cams is also a plus even though i never thought about that. Some people have it wired up with a relay and switch for some what that very purpose. but my self i would wire in the computer for it or atleast try with a switch and relay. With using the computer though it run off the vss sensor which is 4 pulses per revolution on a mr2. Thus the faster you would go the amp load would decrease as the computer would cut back the power going to the pump.

I also remeber reading somewhere that the mr2 the pump basically shuts off at 80mph. So i'm not sure what our vss sensors put out but if it would be 3 or 2 pulses per revolution the pump would shut off sooner i would think.

well any way i was just throwing it out there to see what everybody thought and after i move i might give it a try.

Don't under estimate the amount of power this thing uses.... To bring 40 amps into perspective, think of your kitchen stove (i know i'm comparing 12v to 120v but an Amp is an Amp no matter what voltage) Your stove is connected to a 40A breaker, which will probably never trip. so this pump draws more current (amps) than your kitchen stove does when you have every burner/element turned on MAX. and thats only when its not working hard. when the motor starts it will draw close to 80 Amps (according to one article)... alot of houses won't draw that much current at once...EVER. Thats almost like running your dryer, A/C and stove(w/ everything at MAX) all at once!!! You would need to use a #4 wire to power the thing. #4 is good for approx. 85A. I'm not trying to argue the amount it will draw... just trying to show that even 40 Amps is quite a bit of power for your charging system. Think of your own car... I can feel the engine working harder when my cooling fan kicks in (at idle), and it draws less than 30A.

CHM wrote:My HHR has electric steering, so does the Equinox, Solstice, Sky, Cobalt, G5, G8, bunch of models really those just happen to be right at the fore-front of my mind.

A Little reading if you so desire.

Adapting it to another model is all you dude but this might help you a lil.

What's spoke of in that link is what I was speaking about in my last post: Electro-movite assist. Basically, the motor's torque output, combined with gear-reduction in this case, is used to assist in the steering input efforts to reduce the total amount of effort needed by the driver.

The beauty of power-assist steering is that a faster ratio of steering gear (12.5:1 vs. 16-18:1) can be used to give better steering-feel & response. If you eliminate the pump on a P/S rack or gearbox, you are now fighting a numerically lower ratio than you would if the rack or gearbox were a designated manual unit (Kinda like launching with a 3.08 final-drive gear versus a 4.11). Plus, in Phoniex's case, we may be also talking about total weight of the vehicle upon the front tires & larger tire contact patch. Both of which also add to steering resistance. I mean, c'mon... How much heavier is the front of your car & how much larger is the contact patch of it's tires versus your friend's Civics?


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

I think I should add that as electrical demands increase, the greater the importance of upgrading the charging system to meet the demands (Higher output alternator, heavier gauge wiring for that system...).


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

V x A = Watts. And yes, an amp is a amp regardless of voltage. But the more voltage x the same amount of amps = less watts (Amount of work needing to be done to achieve goal).


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Nickelin Dimer wrote:V x A = Watts. And yes, an amp is a amp regardless of voltage. But the more voltage x the same amount of amps = less watts (Amount of work needing to be done to achieve goal).

Yes i agree100%... I was just trying to point out that the pump uses alot of power. I think that a high output alternator would be a really good idea with this mod.

I'd say perhaps a 150a output min. And speaking of electrically motor-driven devices to minimalize parasitic losses, how about an eletric water-pump?

Seriously, how 'bout it? I've just been lookin' thru the Summit catalog & saw a in-line DC brushless pump that draws 8A and moves 55gpm. Surely that would be enough to take-over the duties a belt-driven pump manages. And it can be mounted anywhere in the lower hose & it works regardless of engine speed. Such pumps from Mezere have proven worthy on street-driven SBCs pushing only 35gpm, and they're doing well.

Can you imagine using that in conjunction with a electric P/S pump? Especially on a full-race car! You could do the classsic thermostat-omit-&-replace-with-large-washer bit (In conjunction with a large area/capacity radiator) and run the engine at way cooler temps than you ever could before. Or on a daily-driver (With a thermostat) you could set it up with a thermostatic control w/manual override (Including for the fan), so that it come on at a set coolant temperature to aid in speeding warm-up, hence improving fuel mileage. The manual-override would come in handy on colder days when you want the heater to come on ASAP, since coolant flow thru the heater core is effected by the water pump. Heck, imagine using it with a HD block or tank heater... You could leave it plugged-in overnight & come out to a fully warmed-up car on a cold morning! Of course, you'd want to wire a battery maintenance charger in as well, to keep the battery up. But it'd still be worth it. Especially in fuel-mileage returns.

Why am I speaking so much of fuel mileage with this? Simple: The less time needed for an engine to reach full operating temperature once started, the less fuel it will consume in enrichment during warm-up to said temp, resulting in better mileage!


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

To be honest dimer the fire is heavier plus has a lil wider tires than his hatch. But i believe his turboed coupe he just buaght is about the same. I did noticed the left the power rack in it and hooked the lines together by the looks of it. It still isn't as hard to steer for some reason. Might be the gear ratio or something.

But i'm not going to argue about anything. So thanks for pointing out things. If i could find the pump,computer and sensor i would go ahead and give it a shot. I'd run 4 gauge to it like stated by sleepy. And see how much a load it puts on the car with the stock alternator with the big 3. If it is to much of on the stock alternator i would buy the high output.

Nickelin Dimer wrote:V x A = Watts. And yes, an amp is a amp regardless of voltage. But the more voltage x the same amount of amps = less watts (Amount of work needing to be done to achieve goal).

Apparently grade school algebra fails you.
I believe you meant LESS voltage times a constant amperage equates to less power.




I have no signiture

^^^ wow.. i can't beleive i didn't catch that... I'm a 4th year Apprentice Electrician so I definitely know Ohms Law inside and out.

You don't need to know ohms law to understand that

aY x Z = aYZ

and if "a" is greater than 1, then aYZ > YZ




I have no signiture

Hmmmm... It appears I partially forgot what I read awhile back. And although I did very well in Algebra-1, I'm having a lil' trouble following your equation without nowing the values of the variables. I guess it's been too long since I applied it.


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

^^^ Just giving you a hard time.

But if that confuses you, you should see the time varying magnetic field vector equations, differential RLC circuit equations as well as other integrals and partial derivatives I have the pleasure of solving....good times




I have no signiture

Well, I did the math & you're right: It would be less work done for less voltage. This makes me wish I'd studied to become a accountant, instead of trying for a career in auto-repair like I settled upon in 8th-grade. Or gone to Devry, like I planned too eventually when I was in the 6th-grade.

Still, I must be good with numbers if I flabbergasted my Algebra-I teacher by handing-in the day's assignment within the class period, while he was checking the previous day's. Especially once when I had so much time left, that I finished what would be the next day's! And got A+ on them all! He actually told me to "Slow-down... I don't think you're fully absorbing it."


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

all you really need is man-powersteering


Working on obtainting an M-Class license... ?? Hint: 2 wheels.