Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price? - Audio & Electronics Forum

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Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:48 AM
I'm looking for an amp with just that. Considerable damping (1000 or so) at a reasonable price ( < $500 ).

I had figured eD would fit the bill for that, but it turns out they damp pretty darn low.
Who would you recommend? Throw some names at me and I'll look into em.

Also, Canadian distros are a giant plus.




Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Tuesday, September 02, 2008 9:49 AM
Power/Impedance Capabilities/Size/etc don't matter.
just FYI



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Tuesday, September 02, 2008 11:18 AM
try looking into digital design
http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp



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Livin'loud
Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:36 PM
I understand the importance of high damping, but is there a specifict reason why you are looking for one? Have you had a chance to compare a high damping and low damping factor amplifier?



Elemental Designs
Performance.Mobile.Audio.
alexl@edesignaudio.com
Warehouse Manager


Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:05 PM
stetsom has high damping, i think i remember alan saying like 1200



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:08 PM
Alex Lindeman wrote:I understand the importance of high damping, but is there a specifict reason why you are looking for one? Have you had a chance to compare a high damping and low damping factor amplifier?


I have heard them side by side and the difference is noticeable.
Let's talk in PM I've got some questions..



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:22 PM
stetsom makes really good amps.and cheaper then the DD's



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Livin'loud
Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Wednesday, September 03, 2008 10:05 PM
No information available though



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Thursday, September 04, 2008 7:59 PM
What type of install are you looking at? if you are looking at an SQ install with proper imaging and the whole nine i would not do a stetsom amp./ SQ=$$$$$$$
Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Thursday, September 04, 2008 8:02 PM
n8ball2013 wrote:What type of install are you looking at? if you are looking at an SQ install with proper imaging and the whole nine i would not do a stetsom amp./ SQ=$$$$$$$


Since the very first post of this thread inferred that I DIDN'T want to spend a ton, shouldn't it be obvious that I'm not looking to compete. I just like the sound improvement.
Plus an amp has very little to do with imaging, your whole statement is pretty damn flawed.



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:13 PM
If you know enough about damping to make an opinion on it, then you probably know that high damping and "cheap" don't belong in the same sentence.
Best way for you to find high damping in your budget is to buy used. Even then, good luck.



GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: if you think you're that much better than them because you're "correct" I hope your progeny don't turn out as screwed up as yourself.


Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Friday, September 05, 2008 5:47 AM
Hi. One, cheap and high damping factor don't go hand in hand. Plus speaker cable, terminals, etc... are going to add resistance, which skews your damping factor.

This should make your e-peen shrivel.

An audio power amplifier's damping factor is defined as the ratio of the load impedance to the output impedance of the amplifier.

Example 1:

Amp output impedance at 1k Hz is known to be: 0.25 Ohms

Impedance of the test load is 8 Ohms (at 1k Hz)

Damping Factor = (Load Impedance) / (Output Impedance) = 8 / 0.25 = 32 (dimensionless ratio)


Now, add a 0.25 Ohm speaker cable between the amp and the speaker and measure the damping factor at the speaker terminals and you would get: Damping Factor = 16
(Note that damping factor varies with frequency)


Example 2:

What if you started with an amp with output impedance of 0.0025 Ohms?

DF = 8 / 0.0025 = 3200 WOW!, what a spec!

Now, add your .25 Ohm speaker cable and evaluate the damping factor at the speaker terminals:
New source impedance = 0.0025 + 0.25 = 0.2525 Ohms (at spkr terminals)

DF = 8 / .2525 = 31.7 Where did the DF=3000 go! I paid extra for that number!


Example 3:

Now determine the damping factor at the actual woofer terminals:

( Hint: Internally the speaker has a 0.5 Ohm inductor in series with the woofer)

Source Impedance = 0.0025 + 0.25 + 0.5 = 0.7525 Ohms (amp+cable+inductor)

DF = 8 / .7525 = 10.6


The point I'm trying to make is that the actual amplifier damping factor specification has little to do with the damping factor seen by a typical woofer...unless the woofer is welded directly to the output terminals of the amplifier ... there could be a patent here. :-)

Many audio engineers are of the opinion that an amplifier damping factor of 10 or greater is adequate. Those sky high damping factors seen on the spec sheets of some amps are frequently just inventions of the marketing department and are irrelevant to actual system performance. The effect of higher source impedances (lower damping factors) is the same as adding series resistance in the speaker cable. Ultimately, the effect is a micro equalization of the frequency response as the voltage drive to the speaker becomes non-flat due to the frequency dependant impedance of the speaker. (adding series resistance creates a small peak at the speaker's own impedance peak...often on the order of 0.25 dB or so) The effect of the series resistance of the "damping" of the speaker is difficult to see when the problem is viewed this way.

The Q(tc) of a closed box speaker is increased by the addition of a series resistance. Here is the formula for this increase in system Q:

Q(tc) = Q(tco) ( (Re + Rg)/ Re )

where:
Q(tc) is the final Q of the speaker system
Q(tco) is the Q of the speaker with zero Ohms source impedance
Re is the DC resistance of the speaker
Rg is the added series resistance


Example 4:

Say we have a speaker system with Q(tco) = 0.707 and DC resistance Re = 6.5 Ohms.
We add 0.25 Ohms of series resistance by way of our amp, speaker cable and crossover.
The net Q of the speaker then becomes:

Q(tc) = 0.707 ( (6.5 + .25) / 6.5 ) = .707 (6.75/6.5) = .734

So the effect of 0.25 Ohms series resistance is really to raise the Q of the speaker from .707 to .734. We could calculate the damping factor...but who cares! We are really only concerned with our net system response. Yes, you could say the "lower damping factor" has affected the transient response of the speaker for the worse. We've all heard the mysterious explanation that "the cone keeps moving after the signal has stopped". But I prefer to look at the problem in terms of the speaker's Q(tc). We can all relate to the speaker Q much better than "the cone keeps moving...". So I prefer to move any discussion of amplifier damping factor away from the mysterious "cone keeps moving..." and into the much better understood arena of speaker system Q.

As you can see there is much more to the issue of "speaker damping" than just the amplifier's damping factor. In many systems the amp's DF will be irrelevant to the final system response because of the series resistance added by the speaker cable and the passive crossover components (see Example 3 above). Speaker designers should always be aware of the source impedance from which their speakers will be driven so that they can compensate for the source impedance in their design. If in fact your goal is to design a speaker system that will have a net response Q(tc) = .707 then you will need to anticipate the Rg (source impedance) the driver will "see" and design the enclosure for some lower Q(tco) such that the Rg will raise the NET Q(tc) to the targeted 0.707.




Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Friday, September 05, 2008 11:27 AM
If I could clap over the internet. It would be for that post.

It shows that it is not as important as most people think. I know with my ears, I cannot hear much of a difference in same vehicle/ same speaker installs/ only swapping the amplifier.



Elemental Designs
Performance.Mobile.Audio.
alexl@edesignaudio.com
Warehouse Manager


Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Friday, September 05, 2008 7:39 PM
Alex Lindeman wrote:If I could clap over the internet. It would be for that post.

It shows that it is not as important as most people think. I know with my ears, I cannot hear much of a difference in same vehicle/ same speaker installs/ only swapping the amplifier.


agreed,



if your not doing most of your listening with the car off sitting in a parking lot and not competing in sq events then its not going to be a major factor.




and you dont nessicarily need a ton of money to compete just a good install. i won enough to get to the world finals with a $2500 install.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Friday, September 05, 2008 8:06 PM
Actually I'd like to clap too, haha. Very enlightening!



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Friday, September 05, 2008 8:29 PM
By the way, I did some research into speaker wire resistences and 12AWG is more around .008Ohms, but it's still enough to make an amp with a damping of 200 and one with a damping of 1000 become comparable after only one meter, nearly identical after two.



Re: Attn: Car audio veterans. High Damping Reasonable Price?
Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:37 AM
But then length of the wire, type of wire, etc... are all going to make a factor. A 4 foot piece of wire is going to have more resistance than a 2 foot piece of wire, different brands of wire are going to have resistances, if you use a terminal clamp or a bolt/nut that's going to add resistance, the terminals at the sub are going to add resistance.

Look for something with low THD and S/N ratio. Look for speakers that have a high sensitivity. Those mean a lot more than high damping.



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