So, according to my POS Innovate wideband, my current AFRs are anywhere from 30:1 to 80:1. Yep, that's right, I said 30-80:1. A vehicle, in theory, can't even run at 18:1, and free air is 20.6:1, so apparently my car is running off of pure air and spits tornadoes out the exhaust pipe as a byproduct...

I tried a "free air" calibration this morning (by actually removing the sensor from the bung) and for a mere second it read 20.6 (like it's supposed in free air), and then it started jumping all over the place, all the way up to 70 at times (while in free air still). I unhooked it all again and then did both the heater and free air calibrations. Same crap. Sometimes when I'm idling it will read the proper 14.7, but then once I get moving it's kind of like it's got tourettes and just starts spitting out random numbers at will. There are no error codes on the controller either.

Has anyone else ever had this happen, and if so, what was the diagnosis?
Does anyone know if you can clean the tip of the Bosch sensor, and if so, with what (intake/carb cleaner maybe...)?

The stupid thing has only been in there for about 7000 KMs, so if it's busted, F that, Innovate and/or Bosch can suck my (insert your choice of word here)...

Maybe you should try calling innovate they do over the phone diag. You coulda gotten an answer faster than you typing this rant...........



ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician

mine did that same thing resently, i found the power wire to the unit had a very loose connection. Remade the connection, and all is good.



M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance

Are you sure its showing AFR and not lambda?





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yeah it is showing lambda.

you need to set it correctly before going and calling it a pos. The only problem I see currently is the user.

I'd also suggest that you calibrate it to, how often do you do that as well?



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

CaliforniaDomestics wrote:Maybe you should try calling innovate they do over the phone diag. You coulda gotten an answer faster than you typing this rant...........

Yeah, I kind of have a job during the day, and I'm pretty sure my boss is not down with me calling Innovate to get the inside scoop on what's up with my wideband 02 sensor. Not to mention the fact that I did email them during my lunch break and received no response as of yet.

Add to that the fact that I enjoy hitting up the JBO members up for real-world answers (such as OUTTAHERE's),
that was far from a rant (the extended length of profanity that came out of my mouth when I knew it was busted this morning, that was a "rant"),
and a I'm hella-fast typer (no, for real, I think there's something wrong with me), so Innovate getting out an answer in less time is straight impossible, and purely fictional.

funny........ any issues i have ever had with innovate took less than 5 minutes on the phone to solve any problems. Your boss is a FAG and you should look for a new job.



ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician

QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:yeah it is showing lambda.

Yeah, no it's not...

It actually shows both AFR and LAMBDA simultaneously on the controller in independent readouts (see the attached image which is straight from the Innovate site, aside from the text addition). Not to mention the fact that a LAMBDA readout of 80 makes astoundingly less sense than that of an AFR output of 80 (though both are nonsensical). To further elaborate, the stoichiometric value of LAMBDA is 1, thus equaling 14.7:1 AFR. If the readout were to be in LAMBDA, which to reiterate, is impossible, as both are shown at the same time, that would subsequently equate to an AFR value of 1176:1. The last time I checked, that's just a tad bit on the lean side....

QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:The only problem I see currently is the user.

If the cars where you live operate on 80 pounds of air to every 1 pound of fuel, then I will accept your statement, until then though, read the above.

QBE (The Boosted One) wrote:I'd also suggest that you calibrate it to, how often do you do that as well?

A quote from my first post in this thread: "I tried a "free air" calibration this morning (by actually removing the sensor from the bung) and for a mere second it read 20.6 (like it's supposed in free air), and then it started jumping all over the place, all the way up to 70 at times (while in free air still). I unhooked it all again and then did both the heater and free air calibrations. Same crap."

In addition to that, both the heater and free air calibrations were performed 5 days ago.

CaliforniaDomestics wrote:funny........ any issues i have ever had with innovate took less than 5 minutes on the phone to solve any problems. Your boss is a FAG and you should look for a new job.

Well, my boss is a pretty good guy, but regardless, yes, I do need a new job (job postings are actually open right now in a separate tab as we speak).

OUTTAHERE wrote:mine did that same thing resently, i found the power wire to the unit had a very loose connection. Remade the connection, and all is good.

Thanks man, much appreciated. I'll check the connection out in the morning. It should be good, as there's a separate 3-way 12 volt (lighter-style) outlet wired into my glove box, and currently the Innovate is the only thing running off of it, but you never know.

If that's not the source of the issue, I think I'm going to try to add a heatsink tomorrow night in between the sensor and the bung (like the D.I.Y. one they list in their instructions). I was trying to find some copper tonight, but had no luck.

it should not be a heat sink issue. If it were it will definently throw a code. The readings can and do go as high as you are explaining when exposed to atmosphere but will usually default to 20:1 or "O2" after a few seconds. It is also possible that the sensor itself has shorted out as it is common for that to happen also be sure the little plastic pigtail at the sensor has not been kinked or pinched off in anyway as this can cause such readings as well. Being its a holiday contacting innovate is not really relevant for an immediate resolve to your issue. The innovate can also pick up interference from exposed wires from the unit that are not being used and should be taped off. (don't know if you have any but it is also a known innovate issue. Just to clarify as well its 14ppm air to 1ppm fuel.....



ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician

CaliforniaDomestics wrote:it should not be a heat sink issue. If it were it will definently throw a code. The readings can and do go as high as you are explaining when exposed to atmosphere but will usually default to 20:1 or "O2" after a few seconds. It is also possible that the sensor itself has shorted out as it is common for that to happen also be sure the little plastic pigtail at the sensor has not been kinked or pinched off in anyway as this can cause such readings as well. Being its a holiday contacting innovate is not really relevant for an immediate resolve to your issue. The innovate can also pick up interference from exposed wires from the unit that are not being used and should be taped off. (don't know if you have any but it is also a known innovate issue. Just to clarify as well its 14ppm air to 1ppm fuel.....

-That is wherein the issue lies though, in that it is not "defaulting" to the free air reading of 20.6, but is constantly outputting high values.
-True, the readings "can go as high as {I} am explaining", but they are "impossible" AFR readings while the vehicle is operating, as at around 18:1, my vehicle would no longer function.
-The wiring has always been a point of concern for me due to the twisting of the wires, and I will check this more closely tomorrow.
-The units used to define the stoichiometric value are irrelevant, as it is defined as 14.7 times the mass of air to fuel. For argument's sake, it could be 14.7 tons of air, to 1 ton of fuel.

oh wow you have that big hunky thing? i just had the gauge.

See when I calibrated mine in free air I had to let it calibrate for 30 seconds.

I suggest calling innovate. Mine did that exactly what yours is doing and I calibrated mine and then it worked but I only had the gauge.



LE61T PTE6262 Powered

Ohh man, i was just gonna get an innovate wideband for my turbo project too...

Now i think im gonna buy something else.. yuck




My CarDomain!!! --- http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2543660

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-digital-wideband-controller-with-sensor-p-41.html

or u could go with this one, and use your laptop to datalog it when u needed to. it also has an output for a AFR guage. only 199.00



M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance

Lefix wrote:Ohh man, i was just gonna get an innovate wideband for my turbo project too...

Now i think im gonna buy something else.. yuck

Yeah, just like OUTTAHERE said, there are "prettier" ones with standard appearance AFR gauges. The one that I have is more or less for data-logging, but via the outputs, I also have an AFR gauge connected through the Innovate wideband. I check the precise readings off the controller every now and then, or whenever I am tunning.

From the Innovate site:

The instrument can sample and store 6 channels of data- air-fuel-ratio and up to 5 other sensor data channels- internally in operation for later analysis on a personal computer. At a sampling rate of 12 samples/second the instrument can store up to 44 minutes worth of data in non-volatile memory. The data can be downloaded to a personal computer using a standard serial port and viewed/analyzed by the included LogWorks software or any standard spreadsheet program:

The LM-1 also features two analog outputs to connect to analog gauges, dyno computers, ECUs, piggyback controllers, and other devices with analog inputs. Analog output 1 comes setup from the factory ready for narrowband simulation; analog output 2 is configured as 1 volt = 10 AFR (.6 lambda) and 2 volts = 20 AFR (1.3 lambda). With the provided LM Programmer software these analog outputs may also be configured by the user.

Lefix wrote:Ohh man, i was just gonna get an innovate wideband for my turbo project too...

Now i think im gonna buy something else.. yuck

Don't be stupid.



" To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous. "

The innovate standalone gauge is definently the way to go in the world of wideband systems on the market. It does have its quirks but it is by a long shot the MOST capable and accurate system out. Has MANY MANY cool options when hooked to the laptop and is expandable. Once configured and setup the way you like. Its maintenance free with the exception of by-annual calibrations. I think at this point you need to call innovate for a resolution as there are to many factors that could be effecting your units readings.



ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php

decent article on widebands , not sure what happened you used to be able to view the 2nd page with out logging in

Yeah i heard alot of good stuff about Innvoate too...

Which innovate model is the BEST wideband kit? Should i get the the LC-1 Sensor with a gauge of my choice?

or is there a better kit available for me? I have money so expensive isnt a problem...

I really need help cuz this is one of the 3 things i need to buy to get my turbo in...
Thanks guys!




My CarDomain!!! --- http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2543660

Don't get me wrong about the Innovate product. It's good, it's great, it's wonderful, etc, etc, etc... I was simply frustrated because I just spent $2000 on parts and airplane flights when my transmission crapped the bed 14 hours from home, and then I finally get my car back and the wideband takes a dump as well. Unlike some people on here who are apparently loaded, I am not, and when something that's worth more than a couple of bucks breaks, I don't sit there calmly and go, "oh well, guess I need a new one...". Nope, I get pretty pissed off.

With respect to my current issue, it would appear that the actual Bosch sensor is the problem point, and not the Innovate portion of the wideband setup. With that said, I would have to put into question the durability of the Bosch product, though there are many things that I could have done wrong (but to the best of my knowledge, everything was operated properly) and I'm also sure that there a billion people out there who have never had issues with the Bosch sensor.

how about the bosche wideband? how does it perform?



Magnaflow Muffler in Classifieds... New In Box

HELFENBEIN wrote:I would have to put into question the durability of the Bosch product, though there are many things that I could have done wrong (but to the best of my knowledge, everything was operated properly) and I'm also sure that there a billion people out there who have never had issues with the Bosch sensor.

Post a picture of your sensor placement.




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

I see... Helfenbein, are you using the LC-1 sensor with controller and a gauge?




My CarDomain!!! --- http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2543660

Lefix wrote:I see... Helfenbein, are you using the LC-1 sensor with controller and a gauge?

I'm using the entire LM-1 package (basic kit). As for the gauge, it's tied into an Autometer AFR, which I would recommend against, especially in your situation (ie. having money to spend). If I had to do it again, or even if I had the money right now to add on (the new Getrag tranny and recent methanol injection kit kind of ate all of that in a hurry), I would purchase the LM-1 and then supplement that with the XD-16 gauge. After some time of seeing a standard AFR gauge go from Lean to Stoich, to Lean, to Rich, To Stoich, To Rich, To Stoich... you kind of tune it out. When I have a passenger though, and I'm tunning anything, or just being cautious and re-checking everything, I always have them readout the numbers from the LM-1. The XD-16 I mentioned has features that would be on-the-fly-helpful (being able to see minimum and maximum values, and being able to set warning parameters), and would reduce the need to go load log data.