Please, not another dumb@ss who believes EVERY word in a 2000 year old (READ: VERY OUTDATED) book... Why can't some people think for themselves instead of looking to the dark-ages for ideas?
Being homosexual is no more a choice than being born a man or woman. The sooner we all can accept that, the sooner society as a whole can move on and deal with real problems, like war and hunger.
Rodney loves everyone equally.
with mouth....
.... seriously though,
Who am I to say that someone is evil just for what they choose to do in life?
I'm human I'm not perfect.
Besides, life's to short to be picky about the little things, there are much larger things at hand and this, well, this is just something that is part of life.
People need to tolerate and be patient, and stop throwing the word "Wicked" and "Evil" around so easily.
jbody4jc wrote:Since being gay is a sin in the bible, it is a choice. We can be forgiven for our sins by asking the Lord into our lives, and turn from our fleshly desires to everlasting life. I've seen life from this side, and I know why it's truth.
incorrect.
being gay for the majority of gays is NOT a choice. their brain is biologically and chemically aligned to be attracted to same sex, in the exact same fashion your brian is aligned to be attracted to opposite sex.
if u cant understand this take a psycology / physiology class.
an intelligent person would deduce from the bible that when speaking about homosexual behavior it was speaking on when a hetero chooses to engage for no other reason but lust with same sex. since obviously that would be a sin from the lusting part. but in no way would god find sin in a person who has no more of a choice biologically of being gay, as that of a hetero being hetero
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and about adam and eve being "perfect"
i said it before, but it just doesnt make sense.
someone said they were perfect but still had free will hence the bad decision.
but perfection has no room for fault. so if free will can lead to a faulty decision than in order to trully be perfect you would have to be absent of free will.
adam and eve = not perfect
and if god created adam and eve in his own image, and adam and eve are not perfect than that means god is not perfect. which would make sense, since he DID create a species with so many imperfections.
and if he is not CRUEL why would he create adam and eve imperfect in the first place and then punish humans for thousands of years sending them to hell because of the imperfections HE created in adam and eve
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Well, since it's now become a "being gay is a sin" debate then let me just state this: Here at OU we have a club called GLBTF (Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and friends). They (gays) are probably the NICEST people on campus. They're more open to new ideas and are fun to talk to. And as far as I know none of them are running around sleeping with every gay person they meet (unlike alot of the straight girls on campus). They're not hurting anyone else. I can't say if it's their decision or not cuz I'm not gay. They're not trying to "convert me", they're just hanging out and being normal (albeit gay) people. If you don't tell them it's a sin and hang around with them, does that mean you're sinning too? Live and let live. I don't see how they're hurting anyone.
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Nathaniel wrote:
an intelligent person would deduce from the bible that when speaking about homosexual behavior it was speaking on when a hetero chooses to engage for no other reason but lust with same sex. since obviously that would be a sin from the lusting part. but in no way would god find sin in a person who has no more of a choice biologically of being gay, as that of a hetero being hetero
First of all, it's hard enough keeping any discussion involving religion civil, so don't throw out bait like "an intelligent person would deduce". As if anyone who deduces differently than you is an idiot. I'm no theologian, but it's clear you're not either. So you're not even qualified to make that statement.
But, if you read the link I posted earlier, it's great way to spend an hour realizing you'd need to spend weeks trying to truly figure it out, and know you're not going to be satisified with any result coming from this thread.
Nathaniel wrote:
and about adam and eve being "perfect"
i said it before, but it just doesnt make sense.
This is getting kind of frustrating to read for me for two reasons.
1) I don't believe the book of Genesis is anything more than a good tale
2) Your personal lack of knowledge of the Bible is causing you to argue a point based on one person's recollection of it. Because you don't know if his reading of Genesis is accurate or not.
You're going on and on about being "perfect", yet have you gone to read the book of Genesis to see if this is what it actually says? And if it does say "perfect", what does the Bible define as "perfect"? Satan himself is a fallen angel.
Think of this, is a perfect friend someone who can disagree with you, argue with you, but in the end you're always friends? Or is a perfect friend someone who blindly disagrees with you, never questions you, and follows you around like a puppy?
Some more example of Genesis having many interpretations. and intrepretations of interpretations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
James Larsen wrote:Well, since it's now become a "being gay is a sin" debate then let me just state this: Here at OU we have a club called GLBTF (Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and friends). They (gays) are probably the NICEST people on campus.
No doubt, my personal experiences with gays is much the same. However, Bible says what it says. You can reject it, or not.
I have a cousin, Fred, who's about my mother's age so he's more like an uncle. Fred is THEE nicest guy you could ever hope to meet. Helps anyone, selflessly. Gives when he doesn't have. Will give a hungry man a meal when he too is hungry. That kind of guy. But he has a nasty habit of saying "God damn" at the beginning of EVERY FRICKING sentence. That's a ten commandment violation there, about 1000 times a day.
Bible would say he's in trouble. So, like you, it's hard to fathom that good people with seemingly irrelevant "flaws" could get tossed in the penalty box of hell over something like that. However, unlike you, I do recognize it's a sin and accept that fact.
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Jbody2nr wrote:Its not always about what the bible says. IF god created us he intended sex to be for procreation not lust or male on male or female female action. Homosexuals cannot produce children and IF god exists then thats not how he would want it. Why? Because he created a male and a female for a reason. To make babies.
How could you negate a cornerstone of your religion, then? Really...how do you know that since, it's not always about that the bible says, that anything above and beyond is God's will when the line can be split many different ways?
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Jbody2nr wrote:Its not always about what the bible says. IF god created us he intended sex to be for procreation not lust or male on male or female female action. Homosexuals cannot produce children and IF god exists then thats not how he would want it. Why? Because he created a male and a female for a reason. To make babies.
How could you negate a cornerstone of your religion, then? Really...how do you know that since, it's not always about that the bible says, that anything above and beyond is God's will when the line can be split many different ways?
Well Its not my religion and I dont believe in GOD. I was merely trying to state what may be some sort of Justification for die-hard christians to hate gays. I dont believe in GOD or practically anything the bible says.
Religion is an illusion created by man to blind them from the truth and justify everything in their favor. The truth that there is no place for us after death.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
Well, okay, my point was this:
If the bible is the testament of God on earth--then unless there has been a new(er) testament that is heralded in the religion, how would we be sure that is what God intends?
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
You cant just like you cant be sure what god intends is actually in the bible.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
AGuSTiN wrote:Nathaniel wrote:
an intelligent person would deduce from the bible that when speaking about homosexual behavior it was speaking on when a hetero chooses to engage for no other reason but lust with same sex. since obviously that would be a sin from the lusting part. but in no way would god find sin in a person who has no more of a choice biologically of being gay, as that of a hetero being hetero
First of all, it's hard enough keeping any discussion involving religion civil, so don't throw out bait like "an intelligent person would deduce". As if anyone who deduces differently than you is an idiot. I'm no theologian, but it's clear you're not either. So you're not even qualified to make that statement.
But, if you read the link I posted earlier, it's great way to spend an hour realizing you'd need to spend weeks trying to truly figure it out, and know you're not going to be satisified with any result coming from this thread.
Nathaniel wrote:
and about adam and eve being "perfect"
i said it before, but it just doesnt make sense.
This is getting kind of frustrating to read for me for two reasons.
1) I don't believe the book of Genesis is anything more than a good tale
2) Your personal lack of knowledge of the Bible is causing you to argue a point based on one person's recollection of it. Because you don't know if his reading of Genesis is accurate or not.
You're going on and on about being "perfect", yet have you gone to read the book of Genesis to see if this is what it actually says? And if it does say "perfect", what does the Bible define as "perfect"? Satan himself is a fallen angel.
Think of this, is a perfect friend someone who can disagree with you, argue with you, but in the end you're always friends? Or is a perfect friend someone who blindly disagrees with you, never questions you, and follows you around like a puppy?
Some more example of Genesis having many interpretations. and intrepretations of interpretations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve
James Larsen wrote:Well, since it's now become a "being gay is a sin" debate then let me just state this: Here at OU we have a club called GLBTF (Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and friends). They (gays) are probably the NICEST people on campus.
No doubt, my personal experiences with gays is much the same. However, Bible says what it says. You can reject it, or not.
I have a cousin, Fred, who's about my mother's age so he's more like an uncle. Fred is THEE nicest guy you could ever hope to meet. Helps anyone, selflessly. Gives when he doesn't have. Will give a hungry man a meal when he too is hungry. That kind of guy. But he has a nasty habit of saying "God damn" at the beginning of EVERY FRICKING sentence. That's a ten commandment violation there, about 1000 times a day.
Bible would say he's in trouble. So, like you, it's hard to fathom that good people with seemingly irrelevant "flaws" could get tossed in the penalty box of hell over something like that. However, unlike you, I do recognize it's a sin and accept that fact.
didnt mean to sound condescending, so i appologize for that.
my comments abotu adam and eve being perfect were not addressed to what was written in the bible but what was interpreted by a poster in this thread. i was not verifying what the bible did or did nto say, but debating this persons interpretation.
i fully understand that no resolution fo rany side can come of this thread. but its a fun debate and is something fun to think about. and i think about it alot
Quote:
No doubt, my personal experiences with gays is much the same. However, Bible says what it says. You can reject it, or not.
again what i said was that i dont feel parts of the bible discussing gays are being interpreted correctly.
since in most gays being gay is nto a choice but how they were MADE. i cant believe god would CREATE a human or LET a human be created with NO other path but hell. that is cruel and i just dont think that is was or would be his intentions or actions.
so the more understanding, just, carring version which in my oppinion would be what i feel god would be would be that when the bible talks about homo behavior being a sin, it is speaking on when hetero humans CHOOSE to have gay behavior. because this action is strictly out of lust. and lust is a sin.
through that interpretation, it would leave gays who biologically chemically FORCED to be gay without sin and open to the path to heaven. and that is how i feel GOD would judge them. and i will never stray from that.
but since the bible does not clarify between homosexual CHOICE and homosexual natural neither of our sides can say with %100 convictionwhat was meant.
and thats the way MOST things in the bible are. and is why religious debates go on all the time. but is also what makes them so fun :d
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The Bible is clear. Simply being a homosexual is not sinful, acting on those homosexual impulses is.
God does not care why you did it, only that you did.
Adam and Eve were supposed to be perfect but free will adds an unknown and something that God refuses to control. By having the possibility of a flaw God opened the door to the fallen one's influence. Again, if you do not love freely, it is not love at all. That is why God does not impose his will upon us but would rather we cooperate freely out of love.
PAX
I don't want to go to much off on a tangent here... .
But the Adam and Eve fairy tale although practices hederosexual tendencies, it also practices incest as well. No...? Well, that is/was bible's explanation to human beings existance on Earth.
Guess in religion homosexuality is bad and incest is acceptable?
Ask a mormon for that matter.
Something to ponder on the hypocracy in the religious faith.
IMO...
Religion=Retrograde mentality, beliefs, practices and worst....imposition.
Where is another French Revolution when you need it?
THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.
so condeming a human who was born with no choice but to be homosexual is loving freely??
i think not.
and no the bible is NOT clear.
for a gay it is not a IMPULSE it is NATURE. i said it before and ill say it again go take a psycology or physiology class maybe it would make u understand that gays or not just simply " oh i think i want to have sex with this same sex person" to them it is the EXACT same brain process as you falling in love with the opposite sex. its NOT a choice. and if its NOT a choice then hwo can it be a sin? arent sins the outcome of a bad choice?
please site a single part of the bible that strictly depicts that even if the humans brain chemistry and biological make up FORCES them to be homosexual that that is the same sin as someone who simply CHOOSES to be homosexual out of lust.
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Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:I don't want to go to much off on a tangent here... .
But the Adam and Eve fairy tale although practices hederosexual tendencies, it also practices incest as well. No...? Well, that is/was bible's explanation to human beings existance on Earth.
Guess in religion homosexuality is bad and incest is acceptable?
Ask a mormon for that matter.
Something to ponder on the hypocracy in the religious faith.
IMO...
Religion=Retrograde mentality, beliefs, practices and worst....imposition.
Where is another French Revolution when you need it?
Well, there's a lot of contradiction in the bible, but that's actually a poor example. If you and your sister were the last ones left, and the only way to keep humanity going was to commit incest, would you?
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Nathaniel wrote:
please site a single part of the bible that strictly depicts that even if the humans brain chemistry and biological make up FORCES them to be homosexual that that is the same sin as someone who simply CHOOSES to be homosexual out of lust.
I can say for certain that no part of the Bible discusses human biology and "brain chemistry". This is not a modern book, you know.
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AGuSTiN,
Yep there is a lot of contradiction, but ask a religous faithful and they will argue to you to death that is the right way to live life.... according to the bible that is.
As for me commiting incest? Well that would be in the same situation as Adam and Eve, correct?
But no, I would do incest, to many consequences to face afterwards.
Personally I beleive on Evolution with a part of Inteligent Design. To me it makes the most sence to why we (humans) are in existence.
THE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ONE.
AGuSTiN wrote:Nathaniel wrote:
please site a single part of the bible that strictly depicts that even if the humans brain chemistry and biological make up FORCES them to be homosexual that that is the same sin as someone who simply CHOOSES to be homosexual out of lust.
I can say for certain that no part of the Bible discusses human biology and "brain chemistry". This is not a modern book, you know.
then why do people still use the bible as a way to condemn put down and villify the homosexuals?
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Nathaniel wrote:AGuSTiN wrote:Nathaniel wrote:
please site a single part of the bible that strictly depicts that even if the humans brain chemistry and biological make up FORCES them to be homosexual that that is the same sin as someone who simply CHOOSES to be homosexual out of lust.
I can say for certain that no part of the Bible discusses human biology and "brain chemistry". This is not a modern book, you know.
then why do people still use the bible as a way to condemn put down and villify the homosexuals?
First of all, Christians who "get it" shouldn't be villifying or condemning anybody. Most Christians don't. Asshats on TV, that's a different story.
Christians who say it's wrong, well, there are plenty of passages that lead one to believe that. And unless you're a linguist, historians AND theologian, it's really hard to contradict otherwise.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality
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i said why do PEOPLE, not ALL CHRISTIANS
and as that link u provided had some quotes talking about a homosexual sex is ALWAYS un natural and that is partly why it is a sin.
i go back to the fact when someone is BORN with brain imbalances FORCING them naturally to be homosexual. and in this case it would actually be un natural to engage in hetero sex.
and i said before that i THINK when the bible references homosexual sex as a sin it is STRICTLY talking about when a naturally hetero human decides otu of lust or some other reason to have homosexual sex. since this would be lust and lust is a sin then homosexual sex is a sin.
but the humans BORN with the brain imbalance that NATURALLY forces them to naturally be homosexual with no choice of their own would be exempt from their homosexual love being a sin. since any other act they did would be UNATURAL to their brain and biological make up.
that link is a good read since it shows how easily u can interperet every lien of the bible either way. since as i said before the bible IS vague and contradictory.
and that is why i dont understand the people who blindly take only 1 interpretation only. seems illogical to me.
im not talking abotu YOU or anyoen else in particular but just the majority of all talks ive had with multiple different religions.
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Nathaniel wrote:so condeming a human who was born with no choice but to be homosexual is loving freely??
i think not.
and no the bible is NOT clear.
for a gay it is not a IMPULSE it is NATURE. i said it before and ill say it again go take a psycology or physiology class maybe it would make u understand that gays or not just simply " oh i think i want to have sex with this same sex person" to them it is the EXACT same brain process as you falling in love with the opposite sex. its NOT a choice. and if its NOT a choice then hwo can it be a sin? arent sins the outcome of a bad choice?
please site a single part of the bible that strictly depicts that even if the humans brain chemistry and biological make up FORCES them to be homosexual that that is the same sin as someone who simply CHOOSES to be homosexual out of lust.
I used impulse in a way you obviously mis-interpreted. I do not believe that a person chooses any of their impulses weather it is a craving for chocolaite or for sex. I was not implying that homosexuality is a choice. I was saying that acting on those (natural if you like) impulses is what the Bible condemns.
The same if you become enraged and have the urge to kill someone, that's OK, but if you actually do it, that's a sin. Do you see the difference now?
The whole problem revolves around the concept that creation is a devine act and that the main purpose of sex is creation of a new life. Anything that corrupts that act will be frowned upon by a Christian church. If there is no possibility of procreation then the act is completely wasted and the power of creation is somehow diminished.
My personal feelings are mixed. I understand that people are quite possibly born "gay" (nothing is concrete about nature vs. nurture and I think there is a mix) and I believe that love is a beautiful thing. Love between two people is hard to condemn. At the same time, I am very much hetero and I have a difficult time understanding the homosexual mind. I just keep to myself, if they're not hurting anyone, I see no need for any kind of government intervention. If they wish to call themselves Christian and continue to engage in homosexual pratices they are sinner just like the rest of us. We have all sinned and the Bible states that all sin is equal. That means that I am in no position to judge, that's for sure.
Now, the real problem is rights and priviledge extended to married couples. To me, that is discrimination against unmarried people in the first place. If people need to take care of estate planning, fine, that is there business, not the governments. Like Trudeau said, the government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.
PAX
You've hit the nail on the head--but something you said extends the same point even further...
Quote:
The whole problem revolves around the concept that creation is a devine act and that the main purpose of sex is creation of a new life. Anything that corrupts that act will be frowned upon by a Christian church.
That states that not only if you have sex for any other reason except having a baby, it's a sin (and how many of the gung-ho christians on this site have sinned in that way?), but that that "rule" is only applicable to the christian church.
Not the rest of us. Thus, assuming i was gay, because i'm not a christian, that law doesn't, and shouldn't apply to me. If that law was made to apply to me, then it would be infringing on my freedom of religion.
That's the whole thing.
I do have to mention that the biggest farsical argument (room 2a--right along the corridor) is that somehow, two gay people who aren't even christian, getting married somehow infringes on their freedom of religion?
How?
I would like someone to explain that one to me, because last i checked, what two people do exculsively in private does not infringe on anyone else's rights.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
^ i understand ur possition
there is more concrete about it being chemical and biological within the brain than otherwise.
Quote:
I used impulse in a way you obviously mis-interpreted. I do not believe that a person chooses any of their impulses weather it is a craving for chocolaite or for sex. I was not implying that homosexuality is a choice. I was saying that acting on those (natural if you like) impulses is what the Bible condemns.
The same if you become enraged and have the urge to kill someone, that's OK, but if you actually do it, that's a sin. Do you see the difference now?
u say the bible condemns it i say it doesnt. neither of us can be proven right or wrong since its in our own perception of the words.
read through that link above from wiki and u can see how both sides have equally believable interpretations.
and i would also def disagree that getting the urge to kill someone is nto the same as a persons brain naturally telling them to be only attracted to same sex. unless the person had a imbalance in the Catecholamines which are the neuro transmitters that control anger or perhaps a malfunction in the cause/effect region of the brain as well. and if that was the case, then i believe that persons act of killing would be forgivin by god because for that person, it was not a choice, the imbalance or malfunction of their brain made it impossible to choose the correct action.
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