HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures - Suspension and Brake Forum

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HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Friday, May 06, 2005 3:33 PM
This is basically a walk through for anyone who wants to make a properly functioning rear tie bar for a j'body car.

to start of, the main reason i did this was to show how NOT to half arse make one. sorry if this offends anyone, but theres a wrong way and a correct way to fabricate one of these.

the purpose of a REAR TIE BAR on these cars is similar to the strut braces, front and rear, and the subframe brace... to increase consistency in handling and also precision. if you have a swaybar, without a tie bar during hard turns, you get less of the full force of the swaybar cause the rear lower end of the car is not braced, and in turn...sloppy. same as if you took a turn without a strut brace.

Using flat subframe brace bars from SUVS, putting them in the wrong location, yeah it will change the handling of your car. especially by acting as a restriction on the movement of your swaybar AND the trailing arms still flex in and out....... no wonder. bushings are on the sway bar endlinks to connect the sway bar to the L bracket. nothing more.... they are especially NOT to have the bushings distorted by a bar that was never meant nor designed to be there of function as so.

its like buying coilovers that were not made for the car, you have to set em on the SPRING PERCH for em to stay up, which is the wrong location, and to top it all off, yea they too change the handling of your car, but also do damage to supporting areas, such as lack of bearings usually cause alot of popping, noises, and also can tear up your strut mounts.

some have said, oh well when the bushings get messed up, i;ll just get new ones, they're cheap. people have said the same on control arm bushings and struts with crappy ebay 42$ coilovers. how ironic they are soooo similar.

like said, a theres a correct way and a crappy/piss poor way to do everything. do it cheap, you;re definately not gonna get the most effective setup for your car

two prime examples of what they should be similar to on install is the way hellwig and addco control FX bars mount to the rear suspension area. (credit via vincent keene, brad is cool, tfm...same pictures)

Addco



Hellwig



notice on both bars, the location of the bar. the tie bar is to keep the trailing arms from flexing in during hard cornering. mounting a bar at the bottom of the endlinks does not in and degree accomplish that. the way you keep two points from flexing is to brace as CLOSE as possible between the two said points.

hellwigs design is the most accurate since the trailing arms connect DIRECTLY to the bracket. the tie bar then connects to the L bracket via heim jointed endlink of the tie bar.

addcos is def quite a few LONG steps above trying to pass a flat bar in the wrong location as a tie bar. but its still a small bit under hellwig. however it does mount the bar closer between the two points that are to be braced.....the trailing arms.


Also heim joints ARE necessary. reason? heim joints allow the swaybar to function normally without putting any other resistance on the bushings or the function of the sway bar. The sway bar does move a decent amount in cornering. plenty of us have seen pictures of cars during autoX lifting rear tires with one side of the car at full extension suspension wise in the rear and the other rear side ....compressed.

just another reason using a flat bar made for an SUV isnt much effective other than hindering the full performance of the swaybar.

Now, can cars without swaybars use them? yes. easy to make one? yes. most who can go to the bathroom and flush the toilet after themselves should be able to accomplish this. most all the parts for non swaybar people are made to order, just bolt it up and on.

you will need.

-5/8 chassis bracket from comp engineering, or even better, A36 hot rolled steel angle. 1.5 inch wide section 1 inch leg x 1.5 inch leg.
-2 rod end heim joints 3/8 inch hole with 3/8-24 thread (about 4.50$ each summitracing, or from radius rod places)
-1 37-38 inch radius rod (speedparts.com, hanksperformance.com, or local sprint car place 12-15$)

basically if you get the A36 steel angle, drill a 3/8 inch on the 1.5 inch section about 1 inch from the bottom end of the base, and a 5/8 hole in the CENTER of the 1 inch leg section.



else if you get the comp engeneering, you can use it as is OR dremel 1 of the identical legs off of it as both are not needed.



**** both are .250 steel****

when you install the bracket onto the car, the 5/8 inch hole is so you can remove the shock bolt (jack car up, 18mm wrench, remove it) and put the bolt through the bracket, with the leg with the 3/8 inch hole, which is where you mount the tie bar should be pointing towards the inside line (middle) of the car. the 3 or 6 oclock position is where you should finally secure the shock bolt, and make sure to tighten it to spec from the manual.

with the bracket in place, you now have a secure place to add a tie bar, and not have a swaybar.




For those with the addco bar, but would prefer an actual mounting bracket similar to the hellwig, this is basically what i did.

-A36 hot roll steel angle. 2 of them, 1.5 inches in width 2 inch leg x 3.5 inch leg.
-35-36 inch tie bar (12-15$ places listed above)
-Two 3/8-24 heim rod ends

For this you will remove the addco L bracket. ***** also as a note, i called addco directly to ask what kind of metal they used for their brackets. they transfered me to tech and tech gave me the steel place that they get their brackets from, which i then called them. the guy i spoke to informed me that they use .250 A36 angle steel hot rolled as its a structural steel. easy to tool and weld, and stiff enough for bracketry.*******



the hold on the short leg of the bracket as well as the hole 2.75 inches out on the long leg are 3/8 inch holes. the hole 1.5 inches out on the long leg is 1/2 or 5/8 inch.

once removed, switch with the new bracket and bolt up the swaybar endlinks.












i;ve tried the gm suv bar, and in comparison to a bar placed in the correct area, theres no comparison really. the gm bar is a cheap fix to give the apperance of a tie bar with the movement limited. the more the movement, the more it affects the articulation of the swaybar by pressing up on the bushings.... i;ve already went through a set of endlink bushing cause during turns for the flat SUV bar to move, it has to compress against the swaybar bushings, decreasing the effect of the swaybar and to top it all off....

the trailing arms STILL are able to flex in. as said above, to keep to points from flexing in. you add bracing right EXACTLY in the middle of those two points.

gm made that bar to be a subframe brace for an SUV, not a tie bar for any vehicle. anyone can do their research on any vehicle and pretty much see ALL tie bars have HEIM ENDS.... you cant tie in two parts of suspension that move and flex more than a few inches and not have a swivel joint. you can, but you can also use a breaker bar for a torque wrench. just cause it fits doesnt mean it will get the job done effectively. and yes yes.. i know we have alot of cheap people around here, however this is for people who will autoX and or want performance handling. not just to add another mod to your JBO registry.

in summary, a tie bar is to PS2 as using a SUV bar is to atari 2600 as far as effectiveness goes.

with a properly added tie bar, the swaybar will work in conjunction WITH the tie bar, but both will operate independently of each other.


total price of the addco setup posted. 33.25$ and about 30 minutes time including install. local welding shops should have A36 in supply, if not metalsdepot.com or onlinemetals.com has more than enough supply and you can get it cut the length you need.

summit racing has the endlinks.

http://www.hanksperformance.com
http://www.speedpartz.com/7838_radius_rods.htm
http://www.rodendsupply.com

have radius rods and rod ends if you wanna use R and L hand rod ends to tighten or loosen while on the car.


like said the reason i put up this how to was to help others do this. i dont think most would wanna add 500-1300$ in shocks and springs, or coilovers, only to add extra metal that not even the right parts and doesnt work effectively in being a tie rod.

basically that would be the equivalent to adding the piss poor ebay 42$ add 50 cents shipped coilovers to your brand new aston m, renault, corvette, or porsche. so why skimp money and add cheap crap that doesnt do the job on something you plan to get performance or longevity out of?

teamforwardmotion.com and bradiscool.com have pictures of what the tie bars look like. GRD, Control FX and people who actually race in the turns in autoX have already designed tie bars that work with said setups. i dont know about the rest of you, but after adding a few grand in suspension i sure as hell chose not to use cheap parts incorrectly and in the wrong location and call it a day.

maybe if you are a believer in coilovers or suspension without bearings when you turn... but i;ve already went the cheap route in the begining. i learned the hard way and it sucked. for now, i do it right or dont BS around it at all. half arsed effort and parts yeild remedial results and piss poor precision.


definately would like to thank members of the SCCA washington DC area, for helping me out in solving a way to have the tie bar in the most effective position. granted i sold my 19mm hellwig, which would have been ideal since the brackets are directly connected to the trailing arms, this was the next efficient thing to do. one thing i have learned though... you can learn alot more things from people who design and improve chassies, so if you get a chance, pick a brain or two on it if handling is your deal.










Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Friday, May 06, 2005 3:37 PM
one word AWESOME! Very good post



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Friday, May 06, 2005 5:55 PM
Now I know what you have been up to. I may make this my next project after I get my car running again (tranny and a whole new suspension are going in- 130k on the factory struts, these AGX's should feel $#@^ good).

Whats with the spacer there on you end link for the sway bar? I bought my addco used so maybe I was missing those... If its supposed to be there please let me know how long it is.

Your missing one dimension on your drawings: the width of the bracket. I'm guessing its 1.5-2"



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:24 AM
Zach wrote:

Now I know what you have been up to. I may make this my next project after I get my car running again (tranny and a whole new suspension are going in- 130k on the factory struts, these AGX's should feel $#@^ good).

Whats with the spacer there on you end link for the sway bar? I bought my addco used so maybe I was missing those... If its supposed to be there please let me know how long it is.

Your missing one dimension on your drawings: the width of the bracket. I'm guessing its 1.5-2"


yeah its been pretty easy, just getting off from work and then making it in home to contact local shops was the main chore.

and yes, i can vouch, you will bun the AGX when you get em on.

the spacers actually came with the addco bar. however i did look into those adjustable endlinks... they use springs instead of that spacer... and the spring compresses a certain amount (as much as you keep it loose) until it acts as a solid spacer, so when you hit a turn, it doesnt get the full effect of the bar until the spring fully squeezes together so you can adjust it kinda like a LSD, you determine when you want the bar to kick in fully.

but tommorow, i;ll caliper the length up for ya as well as the bolt length. as well as get to those updates on the pics, thanks for pointing it out though. was rushing to git r done. silversrt4 and streve were on their way over



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Saturday, May 07, 2005 2:57 PM
As usual, great info Event.

Regards,


___________________________
MAKING MY DREAMS A REALITY
Visit my cardomain site !!!

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Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:41 PM
Definitely great to have you back, bro!





Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:21 PM
Its about time for this post! I've had a few people ask me about the SUV brace in the last few weeks, and I kept telling them- "Thats not the way to do it", but no one believed me. Oh well. Good job Event!




Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:02 PM


ok can we talk about the "end links" for the tie bar pictured here. is that a bolt with sleeve washers in there on top and bottom?
are those in there tight, or made so that they can slip? which is where my next thought came into play. I was thinking that Heim joints would allow movement with the bearing in the middle radially, I wasn't aware of them allowing lateral movement (? is that the right term?. ie when one wheel is pushing up and the other down.)

I'm really tired tonight, so if theres is something that needs to be clarified let me know. this is a great post, I was mildly interested in doing this, now I'm insanely curious. gotta find a welding/fabricating shop now.






Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 8:58 AM
Eliot, wease, and James, "Talofa" and thanx yall

Cinny, there actually spacers i made out of aluminum for the pictures. right now they arent on there, but i did it for the time being to take the pictures, i later installed 3/8 X 1.5 inch long bolts, rather than the 2 inch bolts cause the thread on the 1.5 inch bolts is the majority of the bolt and you can tighten em down all the way to the heim bearing.

right now its in tight. the bearing is pressed up against the plate. similar to the hellwig picture above. until i got the right length bolt, i didnt wanna take pictures of a non tightened setup so i made spacers and tightened it all down.

was runnin again daylight, making it to the store, and getting back in time to get it done. but now basically its mounted like


heim joints do allow the suspension to move independently. but not laterally (side to side) as a testament, many cars use radius rods and rod ends in their suspension.

for example, sprint cars use this is steering linkage, older cars use em as panhard bars and some road cars use em as part of their 4 link setup for rear or front suspension.

so for laterally, left to right, they are def set strong. but like said, some use em as the steering link between the two wheels... both wheels stay equidistant from each other, keeping them parrallel, but also alot movement independent of each side, which is the purpose of use here.

still allows your left and right suspension to work and allow the swaybar to work, but also keeps the wheels parrallel to each other.

as for the bearings strength. pretty decent. the GRD bar that came with the hellwig i had, the bearings have no slopp after 2 years of use and lots of snow and salt. also wish someone would produce a set for the cavalier of top strut plates with the bearing in em. def most automotive parts with large bearings where you mount something through em is all about longevity and precision.


that what ya mean?




Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:49 AM
How about mic'ing that spacer for me sometime when you get a chance?



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 10:11 AM
ok that makes sense. an I don't thnk that "lateral" was the term i was looking for., I must have been thinking of the "twist" of the trailing arm affecting the bearing.




Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 11:54 AM
Zach wrote:

How about mic'ing that spacer for me sometime when you get a chance?
.967 is the measurement, so roughly 1 inch



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 12:43 PM
I just want to know if it fits on a Sunfire GT as we know it comes with 2 mufflers stock? Also, who makes these and where can we find buy them?

That is all for now.



>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----

Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 2:25 PM
Looking good man...

On a side note tho... I had the trailblazer tie bar with the Addco rear sway bar on my 99 'vert for over a year... and I just pulled it off... my bushings are fine in fact, I think I'll be re-installing it on the new car until I finish the mods to the Alero IRS....

It may not be the ideal solution... but it does work, and it works well (for the price). At least in my experience.




<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 3:06 PM
sup john,

id def reccomend you try installing it in the right place. if you;ve never tried it installed correctly, then you cant really tell how much of a difference its supposed to be.

like said, i;ve tried the gm bar for kicks and giggles, and basically thats all it was. thats the main reason why i made the effort to replicate the control FX and old GRD setups.

i know what the feel was with the hellwig and GRD setup, so i knew what to expect. with the gm bar, it wasnt nearly as effective and i found that to be kinda pathetic since this was with the 25.4 addco swaybar, so with a bigger bar (hellwig was a 19mm bar) , there should be a more noticeable effect.....there wasnt.

reason why i suggest that, is just like coilovers, so many people claim riding on cheap coilovers, slammed, on stock struts, the ride is extremely smooth and perfect. or those that say coilovers are bad cause the ride sucks but NEITHER have nothing to judge that against. they;ve never ridden on a coilover system that was designed or installed correctly.



one question though... with the alero irs suspension... you wont have a trailing arm, so what would be the point of install? from the pictures of the IRS, on a cavalier:

<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/592000-592999/592446_20_full.jpg">

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/592000-592999/592446_20_full.jpg

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=3&i=86419&t=84810#86419

you prob wont be using the same swaybars either as you are now, and the middle part of the IRS which houses the arms is already braced as its a pretty solid piece.


the swaybars themselves dont flex with the stock trailing arms, hence the reason the bushings allow movement, which is why we use em, they allow pivotal movement. if you arent preventing the arms from flexing in between the arms, then the bushings will allow them to flex in.

the point of a tie bar is to brace the trailing arms or in an IRS setup with separate independent rear arms.


one that has a housing like the grand am swap, you can use a flat tie bar, like a subframe brace, if the metal is thin <img src="http://www.7thgencivic.com/old_attachments/progress-rear14.jpg"> but unless the housing is thin, you shouldnt need one.


just some ideas....








GT, there shouldnt be a problem as long as you arent excessively lowered and the mufflers clear the suspension arms. not sure if you have a swaybar now ,but if you do, you can do some measurements to see if things will clear.

on most normal cars, shouldnt be a problem. but once you get into extremely lowered cars, it can be a prob. solvable, yes, but a bit of effort.




Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 3:15 PM
john, heres a run through example of a tie bar install on an irs setup... it will be similar to yours if you plan to do it.

http://www.comptechusa.com/instructions/ins078.pdf

its easier and more beneficial to use a flat brace for a tie bar then, simply because the part you are bracing is solid and doesnt move much...

unlike our stock trailing arms, which are constantly moving.



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 4:36 PM
Holy CRAP that is rusty!! Who's car is that?


I had a control f/x tie bar on my addco bar on the silver car.. RIP.. and honestly the trailerblazer bar feels the same to me.. though I've never taken the convertible out on the autoross track, I do take corners way faster than I should

I'm slowly working towards the point that silver cavalier is at... but I haven't even picked up the IRS from the shop yet... In the meantime, I may re-use the addco sway and trailblazin' bar on the red convertible... til I do the IRS swap. We'll see. I wouldn't be using the GM bar on the IRS I'm looking at the bar from www.pfyc.com for the alero rear end..

I had my trailblazer bar on the top of the addco bar... but I also had side-exit exhaust so I didn't have exhaust pipe clearance issues to worry about. Maybe that makes it better? I see the issue of having it on the bottom of the bar.




<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 4:56 PM
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:

Zach wrote:

How about mic'ing that spacer for me sometime when you get a chance?
.967 is the measurement, so roughly 1 inch


You 'da man!



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Sunday, May 08, 2005 6:19 PM

no idea on the car, McMoney is his screen name. very decent job thus far on the install though, gotta admit.


basically the location of the bar is of HIGH importance (with all braces really )

then the allowance of movement is of second importance. if it hinders the swaybar movement, it kinda decreases the effectiveness. and with the GM bar, to keep it from bending the bolt, it can be exactly snug when the bolt goes through it. so it will allow movement laterally.

if the hole is drilled exactly to the size of the endlink bolt, then the bolt will flex/break or the bar itself will flex or break. being a flat bar it is easier to flex.



in autoX i def did feel a difference. and most the guys could tell a difference in the way the car reacted and how the tires handled.


for the most part the avg person street driving, wont notice much and ESPECIALLY those who drag race (dont need to worry about over/understeer if all you mainly focus on is being in a straight line ). if you are not pushing the car hard enough, theres really not a point for much bracing if you dont take turns hard at all.. but for those who will.... you will notice the difference if you turn hard enough. mainly on the apex aproach and right after comming out of it on accelerating. that and tirewear people wondered how i got 50k out of a year round tire with occasional racing



with those installing the bar on the bottom... simple test you can do. keep the bar at the bottom and disconnect the swaybar and endlinks from the L bracket. so its basically 4 bushings and the tie bar at the bottom connected to the swaybar.

you can move around the endlink like a joy stick. since you can do that then the trailing arms still flex.

and def g'luck on that swap... i like alot ofthe stuff they have over there. seems like a decent place. been reading up way more on IRS over the winter, pros and cons etc.



Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 3:07 AM
Will have to stop by and check this all out.


-M


Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 3:40 AM
Again interesting set up.

But I remember you telling me the tie bar should line up with the rear tailing arm.
Since the Addco was larger, the trailing arm was way pu where the mounting bolt for the bracket is.

So I just ended up getting a lil longer bolt and longer tie bar (radius rod) and hooked it up that way.

But I'l def. have to come over to check out/feel that set up.

Kinda giving me idea about that High Rev K brace again.
-M





Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.

Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 3:57 AM
Hey now:

Quote:

a tie bar is to PS2 as using a SUV bar is to atari 2600 as far as effectiveness goes


Ok, now that's just Blasphemy.
E.T> was/is DA BOMB



Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 8:20 AM
I would like to get a rear tie car to try it out but Control FX doesnt make the one for the hellwig sway bar model which I have anymore or even if control FX is even around anymore.

Regards,

J
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 8:38 AM
i have a spare Control FX rear tie bar for Helwig if interested.
Will have to get your own heim joints though.

Emails meh.
-Mastin
MasSnead2@aol.com



Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
Re: HOW TO: rear tie bar w/ pictures
Monday, May 09, 2005 1:37 PM
NeoJuice wrote:

I would like to get a rear tie car to try it out but Control FX doesnt make the one for the hellwig sway bar model which I have anymore or even if control FX is even around anymore.

Regards,

J


considering i just made a post on how to make one, you can. its the same thing as control FX or GRD tie bars. you can paint it red or powdercoat it and make a control FX sticker if you want. but its basically the same thing, and more than likely for less



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