02z24sc wrote:The cobra motor was a hoax when it first came out to compete against the LT-1 Camaro's.
The 4.6 Cobra (retained from the Mark VIII with some changes to exaust cam, intake and exaust manifolds) was dead on with the LT-1 when driven by someone who understood how to drive it. It took a while for people to figure it out, just like it did for people when the first "good" 5.0's came out in 1987.
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Ford lied and then was sued for there BS.
.
This statement is what's BS. Ford was never sued and you can not produce any documentation that they were. They recalled the 99 Cobra voluntarily for a ECM reflash, a catback exaust and had the intake extrude hone ported. It happened in 99 and happened once.
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Fact is ford constantly over rates there engins and GM underrates. FACT.
Where do you get this from? Please show me any instance of a Ford product being over rated other that the original release of the 99 Cobra that got the fix and then made advertised HP. You can't. In fact, the '03 Cobra engine is
UNDER RATED as damn near every one of them is making near what the flywheel hp rating is at the wheels. With the exception of the LS-1 GM has had very little if any history of underrating an engine, possible exceptions being the GNX and Turbo T/A's, and only to keep them from surpassing the Corvettes advertised HP rating.
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And that cobra-r was fords answere to the 1st ZO6.
It was no such of a thing. The first Cobra R came out in 1993, the second in 1995 with a 351 and the 3rd in 2000. The first 2 iterations of the Cobra R were made before the Z06 and were only available to buyers with a SCCA license. All were limited productions and all sold out.
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And it failed miserably considering the mustang was "street/race car" from ford and the ZO6 was an everyday car.
Wow, you keep grasping at more and more imaginary straws don't you? Please tell me and the automotive public how it failed when the entire run of 300 sold, they are currently worth over double what people paid for them while the Z06's have decreased in value to about half of what they were worth and the R ran similar times as the Z06 with smaller displacement? Your imagination needs to get a little dose of reality as it is getting very foggy with the facts.
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And then GM the next year up the hp. And now it seems like the only way ford can compete is by dohc and supercharging.
Let me guess now, DOHC's are cheating?
So because Ford goes a certain route that is different from G.M. it is suddenly wrong? So now you change it from "ford can't keep up with G.M." to "They have to use a supercharger or DOHC's to keep up
. Please keep up the comedy, it's hilarious beyond belief.
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If they were so good, how come there gas milage sucks, yet a ZO6 gets close to 30mpg.
I got 28 MPG with my Mark VIII (DOHC 280 hp in case you do not know with a 4R70W tranny). Many '03-'04 Cobra owners are getting 30+ mpg highway with their cars, and Bob Cosby got 33-34 with 4.30 gears on the street with his 99 N.M.R.A. record holder before he sold it on the street. Yet another myth.
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ford can only dream of efficiency. All around engin design goes to GM since the 60's. Oh and yes the ZL-1 was a production car. Just very rare and expensive.
ZL-1 was not a production car, it was a prototype. Only ZL-1 close to production was that in the 69 Corvette that was driven by Zora Arkus Duntov to high 11's at 121 mph back in the day, and only 2 of the all aluminum 427's were built, and a few Yenko Novas and Camaro's. The ZL-1 was a crate engine option that was rereleased several years back as well in a second production run. If we can include this car we can include the 800+ hp test mules Ford has put out or the 650 HP SN-95 chassis car that went on to become the '03 Cobra. Where was G.M. when Saleen was producing 500 HP cars for sale with a warranty at Ford dealerships in the mid 1990's? Who is catching up? The Firehawk was a poor response to it.
I like arguing as much as anyone, but please try to include at least one valid point in your next post if you can, it gets tiring disproving these myths that keep cropping up again and again. Have a nice day
Dan wrote:Ok thats weird no one has mentioned the 2007 Camaro... Why is that? What you dont think it wont come out? Just because they havent came out with one in 3 years doesnt mean they wont. Just wait and see.
I would read the 5th gen forums at Camaro Z-28.com if I were you, the Camaro will return but not before 2008 at the earliest, more than likely the Z-28 will not be out until 2009, and this is coming from people who have been reliable in their inside information and include the likes of Scott Settlemire and a few others who do the supplying. When the car comes out, I will be glad to talk about it, but with G.M. wavering between calling it the Camaro or the Chevelle, I will pass until an official announcement. I for one would be glad to see a Zeta Camaro on the market as the current Mustang styling does nothing for me. Maybe the redesign on '10 for the Mustang will be better.
Dont quote me to this because this is what I have heard, that the plant that made the Camaro's in Canada was torn dow? I dunno if this is true but I have heard this not saying that it is trur or not.
*95 Z28 M6* *Free mods* *160 t-stat*New LT1 Crate motor 357*Edelbrock Headers*3" Flowmaster cat back* !CAT
Dan wrote:Dont quote me to this because this is what I have heard, that the plant that made the Camaro's in Canada was torn dow? I dunno if this is true but I have heard this not saying that it is trur or not.
its true and unless they build a new plant there, there will be no camaro
the zl1 camaro's were production cars.....better come to terms with it..
EastCoastBeast II wrote:the zl1 camaro's were production cars.....better come to terms with it..
Actually, no, they weren't:
http://www.zlx.com/camaro/zl1.htm
http://www.quillnewspaper.com/Jan03/a0804a1.html
These cars were produced by a dealer for sale to the public. G.M. did not produce these cars, nor were they for sale at dealers across the country. The Cobra R was produced on a Ford assembly line in house. Even the Saleen Mustang, even though not produced in house, carried a Ford warranty and were available at various dealerships across the country. I would consider the ZL-1 the equivelent of a Paul's High Performance 600 hp Marauder package, you might be able to buy it from him and in some numbers (69 for the ZL-1 remake) but it is not a Ford production vehicle.
dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
eCOfIRE .cOM wrote:EastCoastBeast II wrote:if i may chime in...
i think the 04 mustangs looked better than the new ones..
Amen brother........I would consider a 04 Mach1 in competition orange but I don't ever wanna be seen in a 05+ Mustang.Damn chick cars.
I think the new Mustang's are insanely good looking. It was about the only thing Ford could do right with the Mustang now.
I'm not a Mustang guy at all, I actually despise them, but the 05 Stang looks much like how it used to look, with a twist of how it should look now. It's MUCH better then the 04 styling IMO, everyone and their mom has that generation of Mustang, and it gets tiring seeing them, it's almost like the Mustang had lost it's heritage.
I like f-bodies because honestly, you dont really see too many of them out there. Of course you see them driving around, but fact is, you see alot more Mustangs being driven around mostly because any teenage girl or middle aged woman and/or man is going to want a Mustang over a Camaro because it's "cuter". I've never met a girl who actually preferred a Camaro over a Mustang.
The way I see it, Camaro is driven more towards performance and reliability, but with no gas mileage, poor build quality, and basically a weekend car. Mustang is built more to look "cute" in and serve as a good daily driver and get good gas mileage.
Atleast GM Realized way before Ford did that putting a 4-cyl in a Muscle car was one huuuuuuuuuuge mistake.
Dan wrote:Dont quote me to this because this is what I have heard, that the plant that made the Camaro's in Canada was torn dow? I dunno if this is true but I have heard this not saying that it is trur or not.
Yeah. The Ste. Therese plant was one of the most important things in Quebec. It was pretty much their only source of a stable economy. Back in the Late 80's, GM was going to close it down, but then the Canadian Govt. stepped in and offered GM a large, interest free loan payable over 30 years as well as huge tax breaks to keep the plant open.
If that plant wouldn't have been kept open through the persistancy of the Canadian government, GM wouldn't have granted Chevrolet the right to use the Camaro name and F-body would have been long gone in 1990, and we wouldn't be having this argument today.
So what you are telling me is that the first cobra (1993) was this great car when the stock Z28 could walk all over it. And then you say modify it alittle and it walk the Camaro? Now you got me laughing. Why dont you modify the LT-1 with comparable mods. The Camaro will still be ahead. You keep saying that a few mods will help, but do it to both. And yes ford is having to dohc and sc there cars to compete. Think about the s/c on a GM f-car or y-car. And with your earlier statment about the lightning, Hot Rod did a comparison of putting on s/c on the SS and it came within a 10th of second with more weight. The fact is GM does not need power adders on there V-8's from the factory. And under rating GM remember about the original LS-6 was rate at 450hp but was closer to 500hp. They did not have it near it's power band and that goes for most of there old V-8's.
I swear, as loud as you are, you should be doing at least 200 mph.
sappyL61 wrote:dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
But it's sold on dealer lots across the country. I never tried to bring Saleen into this argument, but thge masses grasping at straws wanted to bring the ZL-1 made by a dealer into this. This whole argument is getting more and more silly by the minute.
MiKeDiRnTRuLeZ wrote:
I've never met a girl who actually preferred a Camaro over a Mustang.
You've not met my wife. She misses ouur last Z-28 and now wants a black LS-1 Z-28. Since the Mustang will be gravitating toward a strip/weekend car when I can get a better block, this might be in the future. I would love to tinker with one.
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The way I see it, Camaro is driven more towards performance and reliability, but with no gas mileage, poor build quality, and basically a weekend car.
The Mustang is made as a car that can be everything to everyone. The 6cyl can be for those who want the look without the performance. The GT for those who want some "Umph" without breaking the bank, the Mach I for those more performance oriented and the Cobra for those serious about performance. The best thing is that they can be driven on a daily basis.
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Mustang is built more to look "cute" in and serve as a good daily driver and get good gas mileage.
With 60% (at last sales release numbers) of Mustangs going to males, I don't think the "cute" factor is in any minds but that of females. Maybe if more females had bought the F-body it would still be around. Pray that G.M. does not make the same mistake with the Zeta platform cars. I think G.M. will come out with a winner, let's just hope they listen to the enthusiasts.
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Atleast GM Realized way before Ford did that putting a 4-cyl in a Muscle car was one huuuuuuuuuuge mistake.
It was never a good idea. They could have at least put a better powered V-6 into the car, but the 4cyl is insanely slow, especially when combined when an A4LD tranny.
MiKeDiRnTRuLeZ wrote:Dan wrote:Dont quote me to this because this is what I have heard, that the plant that made the Camaro's in Canada was torn dow? I dunno if this is true but I have heard this not saying that it is trur or not.
Yeah. The Ste. Therese plant was one of the most important things in Quebec. It was pretty much their only source of a stable economy. Back in the Late 80's, GM was going to close it down, but then the Canadian Govt. stepped in and offered GM a large, interest free loan payable over 30 years as well as huge tax breaks to keep the plant open.
If that plant wouldn't have been kept open through the persistancy of the Canadian government, GM wouldn't have granted Chevrolet the right to use the Camaro name and F-body would have been long gone in 1990, and we wouldn't be having this argument today.
I've heard that part of the site is designated for an office park.
02z24sc wrote:So what you are telling me is that the first cobra (1993) was this great car when the stock Z28 could walk all over it. And then you say modify it alittle and it walk the Camaro? Now you got me laughing. Why dont you modify the LT-1 with comparable mods. The Camaro will still be ahead. You keep saying that a few mods will help, but do it to both. And yes ford is having to dohc and sc there cars to compete. Think about the s/c on a GM f-car or y-car. And with your earlier statment about the lightning, Hot Rod did a comparison of putting on s/c on the SS and it came within a 10th of second with more weight. The fact is GM does not need power adders on there V-8's from the factory. And under rating GM remember about the original LS-6 was rate at 450hp but was closer to 500hp. They did not have it near it's power band and that goes for most of there old V-8's.
Wow, now you are putting words into my mouth that I did not even say. This has been fun, but your arguments are getting so silly that it is not worth my time to quote it and respond anymore. Good luck with your supercharged Cavalier.
scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
But it's sold on dealer lots across the country. I never tried to bring Saleen into this argument, but thge masses grasping at straws wanted to bring the ZL-1 made by a dealer into this. This whole argument is getting more and more silly by the minute.
the fricken ss was sold on a factory lot but you didnt want to count them
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With 60% (at last sales release numbers) of Mustangs going to males, I don't think the "cute" factor is in any minds but that of females.
propably buying them for their daughters..
They are both very good cars, but you have to look at what you are doing. You will see many more mustangs at the drag strips because their frame will not twist or bend, but ... their engines will not naturally perform at high HP's (naturally = non boost) To where as the camaro you will have a frame that will twist and turn so therefore you will have to weld metal onto the weak parts of the frame (generally the back of the camaro) but you can get alot of HP out of naturally suping up the engine. Once again naturally is meaning with out boost. So really it is all in personal preferance to which is better. Me personally I would probably take a mustang because of their looks/body style.
dan
sappyL61 wrote:scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
But it's sold on dealer lots across the country. I never tried to bring Saleen into this argument, but thge masses grasping at straws wanted to bring the ZL-1 made by a dealer into this. This whole argument is getting more and more silly by the minute.
the fricken ss was sold on a factory lot but you didnt want to count them
It was sold on 1 factory lot and was made by the dealer. Saleen is classified as a manufacturer.
scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
But it's sold on dealer lots across the country. I never tried to bring Saleen into this argument, but thge masses grasping at straws wanted to bring the ZL-1 made by a dealer into this. This whole argument is getting more and more silly by the minute.
the fricken ss was sold on a factory lot but you didnt want to count them
It was sold on 1 factory lot and was made by the dealer. Saleen is classified as a manufacturer.
well then show me where it says that about the camaro ss please cuz im sure thats news to alot of people
sappyL61 wrote:scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:scott9050 wrote:sappyL61 wrote:dont give me that saleen crap
its not a factory ford
i dont care if its warrantied or not
But it's sold on dealer lots across the country. I never tried to bring Saleen into this argument, but thge masses grasping at straws wanted to bring the ZL-1 made by a dealer into this. This whole argument is getting more and more silly by the minute.
the fricken ss was sold on a factory lot but you didnt want to count them
It was sold on 1 factory lot and was made by the dealer. Saleen is classified as a manufacturer.
well then show me where it says that about the camaro ss please cuz im sure thats news to alot of people
Oops, I was in a rush and did not notice you said "SS". SS's are legit, I never said they weren't.
scott9050 wrote:MiKeDiRnTRuLeZ wrote:Dan wrote:Dont quote me to this because this is what I have heard, that the plant that made the Camaro's in Canada was torn dow? I dunno if this is true but I have heard this not saying that it is trur or not.
Yeah. The Ste. Therese plant was one of the most important things in Quebec. It was pretty much their only source of a stable economy. Back in the Late 80's, GM was going to close it down, but then the Canadian Govt. stepped in and offered GM a large, interest free loan payable over 30 years as well as huge tax breaks to keep the plant open.
If that plant wouldn't have been kept open through the persistancy of the Canadian government, GM wouldn't have granted Chevrolet the right to use the Camaro name and F-body would have been long gone in 1990, and we wouldn't be having this argument today.
I've heard that part of the site is designated for an office park.
Yeah, GM tries to do some "Community service" with all of their old plants and make them into something the community can use long after GM has left. My car was built in Van Nuys, California. Used to be an extremely large plant but now after being torn down, it turned into a bowling alley/shopping center, at GM's expense IIRC.
the haterade is rampant in this thread, and it sucks that people cannot respect other vehicles. scott9050 has said anything i could have said, and lots more, so i wont add anything more than that some of you guys are brand loyal and narrow minded. And that is not a good thing...
id like to have loyal friends a dont know about you guys
and whos being narrow minded?
i just want the facts
from the book "Chevrolet built the ZL1 in 69 and made it avaliable as copo " the fact remains thats it was endorsed by chevy not like dealers were just pulling the zl1 out of their ass and my SS can take anY mustang except for a cobra and they had to put a supercharger on it to put it out of my league but if i slaped one on my car i would kill a mustang
correction kill a cobra i already kill mustangs
