"Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this? - Tuning Forum

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"Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:15 PM
ok so earlier today i was tossing around the idea of running around an E30-E40 mix in my m45 z24, just to gain the some of the benefit of a cooler combustion chamber charge and further aid in detonation control OVER my meth/water injection.

i started getting into the research part of it and i came across something i honestly hadnt even fathomed before... an E85 flexfuel conversion kit. from what i am seeing its just a control box, with wiring, and harness etc. now, from my understanding, this works as a signal interceptor between the PCM and the fuel inector's telling them to "pour it on" so-to-speak to get the correct stoich ratio for the E85.

now, please... for the love of god tell me why this would not work on our cars? obviously the fuel system would need to be beefed up, nobody is claiming this to be a plug it in and go deal but i just dont see any reason why this could not work. 2000+ j's have a plastic gas tank, so thats already a plus. just need some beefy injector's (thats easy) and replace any rubber fuel lines. on my LD9 the only one's im aware of are the ones in the engine compartment.

i went to this link @ change2e85.com and located a 2000-2005 delphi kit. the picture for the injector plug looks identical to the ones on my 2000 LD9 harness.

E85 would help us. ive seen TONS of cars gain substantial amounts of power converting to E85. running it in my M45 HEATON car i can only see it as being one HELL of a frickin upgrade.

now... why hasn't anybody talked about this before? go HERE to read all about E85 conversion kits and how they work





It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.

Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 3:56 AM
There is a couple members on v6z24.com. I read a few of them complaining the the e85 fuel is not as consistent as regular gas. The mixes are different from station to station and makes some of their cars run like crap. One member set up a toggle switch to switch between tunes depending on the gas station.




On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 4:17 AM
according to what i have read about these, they are an on the fly type deal that changes the amount of fuel trim needed for the amount of info the o2 senses to what amount of ethanol is in the motor.

in other words... if say you get e70 instead of e85, it will see that the o2 sensor is rich and back off the trims a bit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 15, 2013 4:18 AM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 4:27 AM
I want to know how it is actually reading the Ethanol content, and how it is adding fuel. Most of the GOOD E85 kits have to adjust on the fly all the time, because E85 from station to station and season to season can be WAY different. Normally there is a "fuel sensor" to measure the ethanol content in real time.

Everything I have read about what you posted.....I see no way for the system to know how much Ethanol is in the system...or a blend of.





Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 9:19 AM
i honestly think the o2 sensor tells the pcm whats going on and whatever the pcm puts out this piggyback system just adds the nessesarily amount of more fuel to make it happy.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 10:01 AM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

i honestly think the o2 sensor tells the pcm whats going on and whatever the pcm puts out this piggyback system just adds the nessesarily amount of more fuel to make it happy.


but wouldn't not make the stock ECU go crazy because ti would never get the change it was trying for?




FU Tuning



Re: "Cant" run E85 on stock PCM? OK.. why cant we run this?
Monday, April 15, 2013 10:03 AM
i have no idea, man. its one of the questions on my list for the company.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 10:07 AM
Do Flex-Fuel vehicles trim fuel differently?
The stoichiometry of ethanol requires more fuel for the same amount of air than does gasoline. As you
add small amounts of ethanol to the fuel, like with E10, your ECM will make positive trim adjustments to
correct the fuel to air mixture. As higher ethanol concentrations are used, higher levels of additional
positive trim will be needed. Non Flex-Fuel vehicles will generally reach their capacity for positive trim
with a concentration of approximately 50% ethanol. Afactory Flex-Fuel vehicle will have an ECM which
has the necessary capacity for positive trim to correctly trim the fuel for high concentrations of ethanol.

What does stoichiometry mean?
The stoichiometry of a fuel refers to the coefficients in the chemical reaction equation and is expressed
as a ratio of the mass of air to the mass of fuel. For pure octane, the ratio is about 14.7:1, but do you
know anyone who burns pure octane in their car? Gasoline is a mixture of many different compounds,
most of which are usually not octane but various alkenes. Each of these compounds will have a
different stoichiometric ratio and the exact chemical makeup of gasoline can vary quite a lot from one
tankful to the next. The air available can, and does, change as we drive to different altitudes, the
temperature changes, and even from moment to moment due to wind pressure. It could be terribly
complex to compute the exact mixture needed for each tank of fuel, but a modern ECM will use a fuel
trim system to make the mixture more lean (negative trim) or more rich (positive trim) to compensate for
different operating conditions.

How does our converter work?
Our converter works in concert with your vehicle's fuel trim system. Flex-fuel vehicles have a fuel trim
system with more capacity for positive trim than the positive trim capacity in a non flex-fuel vehicle. By
inserting a digital signal processor and some electronics between the ECM and the injectors, we can
add some positive trim to help the non flex-fuel vehicle reach the amount of positive trim necessary for
correctly using ethanol. This added trim, combined with what the ECM can provide, allows the ECM to
trim the fuel to reach the proper mixture for E85. Our converter has an internal adjustment which allows
it to be tuned to each vehicle and the range of fuels typically being used. We have found that a setting
of about 60% of the converter's positive trim works very well for the vast majority of vehicles and ship
converters set to this level.

Do you tap into or modify the signal from any of the sensors?
Absolutely not! We do not modify, disconnect, alter, or otherwise interfere with any sensor. We also do
not interrupt, sample, intercept, reformulate, or otherwise adulterate the signal from any sensor.
Our converter takes a completely hands-off approach to the sensors, their signals, and the operation of
the ECM. We ONLY modify the injector pulse and leave the sensors completely AS IS. The sensors and
the ability for the ECM to accurately monitor the conditions they are designed to sense form the heart
of a vehicle's emission control system. Any adulteration in the integrity of the sensor signals would
interfere with the ability for the ECM to receive proper inputs and, in essence, would be an engineering
change to the emission control system with which the vehicle originally certified. Even tapping into a
signal could theoretically cause some unexpected interference. By not messing with any of the vehicle's
sensors, we eliminate the risk of disrupting the ability for the ECM to get accurate information with which
to properly run the emission control equipment. The on-board diagnostics that have been required
since 1996 will detect if the emission control equipment is not operating within acceptable parameters.
As long as the ECM has unadulterated signals from its sensors, the emission control equipment will
either be operating correctly or a check-engine condition will occur. For most modern vehicles, the only
thing they lack to be able to use ethanol is a bit of a boost to the amount of positive trim they can
produce. That can easily be done by making a small increase in the injector pulse width. This makes for
a very clean conversion and leaves your vehicle's emission control unaltered.




It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 10:25 AM
Quote:

How does our converter work?
Our converter works in concert with your vehicle's fuel trim system. Flex-fuel vehicles have a fuel trim
system with more capacity for positive trim than the positive trim capacity in a non flex-fuel vehicle. By
inserting a digital signal processor and some electronics between the ECM and the injectors, we can
add some positive trim to help the non flex-fuel vehicle reach the amount of positive trim necessary for
correctly using ethanol. This added trim, combined with what the ECM can provide, allows the ECM to
trim the fuel to reach the proper mixture for E85. Our converter has an internal adjustment which allows
it to be tuned to each vehicle and the range of fuels typically being used. We have found that a setting
of about 60% of the converter's positive trim works very well for the vast majority of vehicles and ship
converters set to this level.


Wait what? So they are guessing what in theory it should be....

If there is no ethanol sensor....I wouldn't buy it.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 15, 2013 10:27 AM


Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 10:54 AM
SO after way to much reading it seems this is just a get it close, and you "fine tune" it to your car via a potentiometer. That doesn't even slightly sound like a good idea to me.

What happens when you get a slightly different blend. Without a ethanol sensor I'm thinking pretty much all of these kits are a bad idea. Could they work, yep, but it is in no way shape or form a good safe / correct way of doing it.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, April 15, 2013 11:02 AM


Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 11:16 AM
if you got a different blend it would just go a bit rich. it has to be at least e70.

what is is pontichameter or whatever lol



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.

Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 11:18 AM
There are more problems than that with e85. Look into the black goo issue, it's well documented.. Also e85 is very corrosive to plastics and rubber that aren't designed for it. You will also need injectors that are roughly 40% larger. The gains you MIGHT see probably aren't worth all the extra money and work over meth injection.
Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 11:26 AM
And also the others are right with inconsistent mix. Its not uncommon to see it dip below e70. This can have catastrophic effects friending on your tune. So running conservatively diminishes your gains even more. Also e85 causes cold start issues so keep that in mind if you are up north. The winter blend is also quite a bit different.
Re:
Monday, April 15, 2013 11:36 AM
ok ill try it and report back. thanks guys!



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:07 AM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

ok ill try it and report back. thanks guys!


Report what? Are you actually going to try this system?

Brad you need to understand - this is like purchasing a PCM with no oxygen sensor feedback.... would you buy a PCM for your car that has no feedback, but has a tune on it that "should" cover 60% of your positive trims... maybe. It has no idea whats going on in the engine but it just might cover your needs in certain situations... sort of.

That's worse than a mail order tune.

Unless you can find a system that will READ the level of Ethanol and adjust accordingly you are essentially electing to strap a time bomb to the engine.

The people here who know what they are talking about do not recommend it for that reason... do yourself a favour Brad and take the advice on the table.

-Chris-


-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 2:55 PM






P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:23 PM
QWK LN2 (P&P Tuning) wrote:



awesome contribution!

CHRIS.... ok, now, what part of any of this post and system leads you to believe i would not have it fine tuned on a dyno and also have the PCM tuned along side it? do you really believe that i would just bolt this on and go and hope for the best? if so, our years of chats have failed.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:22 PM
14.7:1 under boooooost!!!! wrote:

There are more problems than that with e85. Look into the black goo issue, it's well documented.. Also e85 is very corrosive to plastics and rubber that aren't designed for it. You will also need injectors that are roughly 40% larger. The gains you MIGHT see probably aren't worth all the extra money and work over meth injection.


black goo? never heard of it. ill look into it.

e85 is corrosive to cars made back in the 70's and before. during the 80's the government mandated all cars come equipped to handle ethanol. the rubber since then has been synthetic.

injectors do not need to be 40% larger. 100% ethanol requires 28.5% more to work properly. this is only 85% and below.

the gains are posted all over the internet from f-body's to subie's to honda's. its a known fact, boosted cars benefit from cooler combustion chambers and the ability to advance timing further do to higher octane content.

what work exactly? you unplug ur injectors, plug this box in and hook up a ground. its that simple. then to tune it, mind you this is the ghetto way they say anybody can handle to get it in the ballpark... if the o2 sensor reads lean and throws a code you adjust the box for a richer mixture... if the 02 sensor reads rich and throws a code, you adjust the box for a leaner mixture. how is that a bunch of work?

i would still use WATER injection to cool the s/c. no need for meth on e85.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:29 PM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:26 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

QWK LN2 (P&P Tuning) wrote:



awesome contribution!

CHRIS.... ok, now, what part of any of this post and system leads you to believe i would not have it fine tuned on a dyno and also have the PCM tuned along side it? do you really believe that i would just bolt this on and go and hope for the best? if so, our years of chats have failed.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:00 AM


FU Tuning



Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:38 PM
what are you talking about john? its got the gm reflash. its obviously tuned. YOU, yourself gave me the injector constant to run the 42# injectors and i tuned it for them. the AFR's might not be perfectly dialed in but its safe. i beat on the car every day and put 10,000ish miles on the blower in 3 months and didnt melt the engine down so.... whats the problem, now?

tell me... why have it tuned for $300 dollars if i was just going to add more mods to it right after? please explain to me how that is cost effective? remember, i dont know what im doing... i have to pay someone to tune this.

with something as important as the tune for e85 i am shocked that you would think id just run it and let the damn thing blow. give me more credit than that john


Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:42 PM


It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:40 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

14.7:1 under boooooost!!!! wrote:

There are more problems than that with e85. Look into the black goo issue, it's well documented.. Also e85 is very corrosive to plastics and rubber that aren't designed for it. You will also need injectors that are roughly 40% larger. The gains you MIGHT see probably aren't worth all the extra money and work over meth injection.


black goo? never heard of it. ill look into it.

e85 is corrosive to cars made back in the 70's and before. during the 80's the government mandated all cars come equipped to handle ethanol. the rubber since then has been synthetic.

injectors do not need to be 40% larger. 100% ethanol requires 28.5% more to work properly. this is only 85% and below.

the gains are posted all over the internet from f-body's to subie's to honda's. its a known fact, boosted cars benefit from cooler combustion chambers and the ability to advance timing further do to higher octane content.

what work exactly? you unplug ur injectors, plug this box in and hook up a ground. its that simple. then to tune it, mind you this is the ghetto way they say anybody can handle to get it in the ballpark... if the o2 sensor reads lean and throws a code you adjust the box for a richer mixture... if the 02 sensor reads rich and throws a code, you adjust the box for a leaner mixture. how is that a bunch of work?

i would still use WATER injection to cool the s/c.
no need for meth on e85.


I'm on my phone do bear with me. Cars in the 80's and 90's were designed for e10. That is quite a big difference.ethanol is corrosive as hell. It also attracts large quantities of water so you have that issue too.

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html

I doubt they would lie.0Sure you can do the bear minimum. And then when the mix is different risk going static. You willing to risk your engine over something that trivial? I hope not
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&client=chrome-mobile&ei=DOBtUdTcEYaC8QSRooHQDw&q=e85+black+goo&oq=e85+black&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0l2j0i22i30l3.21153.26172.0.27304.5.5.0.0.0. 0.282.1174.0j1j4.5.0...0.0...1c.1.9.mobile-gws-serp.YdXxgdVbzGQ

goo threads galore.

Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:49 PM
someone has been listening to too much oil company propoganda. cars have to be designed to sit periods of time with that E10 in them. hell, my car has been sitting for 5 years now with E10 in it and a metal gas tank. it hasnt melted through. E85 is not acid, its fuel.

as far as the engine goes, i dont care, its stock. i can have ten more stock LD9's lined up down the side of my garage in a week for less than a thousand dollars. im willing to take the risk to try something new. i have no idea why so many people around here are completely against the use of E85. i dont know if its the sheer ignorance caused by lies spread by the internet or what but its ridiculous.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:55 PM
this box put it simple terms is basically a fuel injector signal ampfier. it takes the signal seen by the ECU and the O2 sensor to the injectors and tells the injectors to add more fuel. sure, putting it on a car right off the box and running it is stupid, you would want to get it on a dyno with an experienced tuner and have them dial everything in. that is my plan anyways.



It's nice to be injected but I love being blown.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:00 PM
The irony in your post is to much. Ethanol is corrosive period. No propaganda about it. It also absorbs water immensely well which can cause issues of its own obviously. Go take a look at the area around your gas filler in the car that's been sitting. I bet there is all kinds of black crap around it. Guess what that is from. The ethanol. Your problem is you only believe what you want to believe. If it guess against that you deny it. Go ahead and blow up a few ld9's. We'll just laugh at you.


I wouldn't touch that "box" with a ten foot pole. I'd sooner just run megasquirt and actually run it properly.
Re:
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:01 PM
-Z Yaaaa- wrote:

what are you talking about john? its got the gm reflash. its obviously tuned. YOU, yourself gave me the injector constant to run the 42# injectors and i tuned it for them. the AFR's might not be perfectly dialed in but its safe. i beat on the car every day and put 10,000ish miles on the blower in 3 months and didnt melt the engine down so.... whats the problem, now?

tell me... why have it tuned for $300 dollars if i was just going to add more mods to it right after? please explain to me how that is cost effective? remember, i dont know what im doing... i have to pay someone to tune this.

with something as important as the tune for e85 i am shocked that you would think id just run it and let the damn thing blow. give me more credit than that john






Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:01 AM


FU Tuning



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