MAn.. you used "God" and Fast and furious in the same sentence... I'm so bloody tired that you made me laugh like ninny, and now people at work think I'm an even bigger ninny... Thanks


Anyhow, I'm going to reply later on tonight... I gotta work.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Glad I made you laugh, but I used God and "fast and furious" in two successive, yet seperate sentences thankyou very much.

You made me laugh.. I hadn't thought of that and likely would have re-worded it if I had.

Staring at fingerprint impressions from Pardon Applicants and listening to Dude, Where's My Country? on audiobook sends my brain to the doldrums.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Okay.. now that I'm home from work, and I don't have to worry about minutae dancing around on me...

Hahahaha:

I like your style. I may not entirely agree, but hey, having a belief system in place and not forcing it on other people, and only talking about it when you're solicited, that's cool by me.

I'm not going to draw paralells between you and others, because I don't take you (or any one other individual) as the sole representation of a creed or religion... I don't go for stereotypes, they're usually mutually destructive.

Anyhow, since you enlightened us all about your belief system, I'll weigh in, and you all can take it or leave it, it works for me.

I tend to vassilate between belief in an almighty, and belief that there isn't anything beyond this mortal coil.

I find very hard to believe that there can be so much diversity in the world, that there can only be ONE WORD. I think that in the greater perspective of the major religions (ie: Judeo-Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan/Earth based religions) they all pretty much preach the same ideals, Love thyself, love thy neighbour, harm none and do what ye will, and faith in the hereafter... Similar messages, but so many little pigeon holes..

I've read the Bible, I've read a bit of the Qur'an and only briefly looked at the Torrah, and though they center around the same series of events, and more or less the same people, there is such a bitter divide. I think the God question harkens to our greater need to belong, and protect our own... whatever that might be.

I look at it like this, and I'm probably going to get called a crackpot for the last bit, but again, take it or leave it.

In Europe, before the rise of the Greeks or Romans, Pagan groups would usually feud with each other for one reason or another... stupid little disputes and sometimes there was bloodshed. When Romans began to expand their empire, their petty and inane squabbles became less important than their mutual survival. They banded together, and resisted the tide of Rome, until they were put asunder. These were not just Caucus mountain men, these were the Gaellecians, Welsh, Scots, Irish, Spaniards, Normans..

They had a common foe, and at that, they needed to be united because Rome was becoming hungry for territory.

This isn't an uncommon thing, and frankly it's been repeated over and over throughout history, The enemy of my Enemy is my Friend. It played out with the Mongols, the Chinese Dynasties, Egyptians, European continentals, hell even the Americans and British/French during the colonial wars.

I see that now, the bitterness in the world and the divisions between religions and people for that matter, are simply because we don't have a common cause. We CAN'T live in peace.. I don't think we can at least as a whole. All religions telling us to rise above our baser instincts, and so few of us actually can.

If there is an almighty, I think the idea for us beyond living in peace, and following the same rules (more or less), is to rise above what we are now, and seek the divine through the power we have over ourselves. I think that heaven is not JUST the reward for a life lived in piety, I think that we have to learn and discover for ourselves. Some people think that science strips away the mystery of life, but I think that we owe it to ourselves and our creator to worship creation... some choose to celebrate the mystery, and some seek to understand that we may see the perfection in all its dimensions.

Ultimately, if we accomplish that, we may or may not find the devine (assuming that there is such a thing). If not, then we're just shadows and dust either way, and it really won't matter.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

^^
Intresting...i never took you for someone that takes "mortal coil" and "almighty" as extremes that are the only forms that reality can take.

Whether or not God, in the monotheistic sense exists, it would not be a two-tier system--especially with the diversity you point out.

To take a very simplified slice of my belief system, there's far more to the universe than the mortal coil, and we can only percieve a tiny fragment of that. Whether or not God exists, the Answer lies out beyond it.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Well, that was posted in a caffeine induced and sleep-deprived stupor...

If there is a God, I haven't met him/her/it/them... I've found that there are many different ways of saying the same thing, ie. String theorists/vibration theorists speak of transcendence, and so do many Buddhists that use transcendental meditation, Judeo-Christians and muslim use different words for God, but it's the same major idea.

If there is something other than what we have in the here and now, I don't know what it is despite looking for it, and hoping it'd come to me.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

That's all you can do...remember in a lot of the more ancient religions (and even in the choirs of angels) there are heirarchal tiers to what's more powerful than the next.

As such, It would be erroneus to assume (in the absolute, in the relative do what you do) that it's just God and Man and nothing in-between--no matter how you see it.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

i skipped ahead from the first page, to much ranting to keep track of, kotl i'm with you, most christans heaven would deffinatly be my hell, when christians try to tell me i'm going to hell i say one of 2 things, neither are mine but i like the sayings lol

1. good i'll see ya there

based on the fact that most christians are amongst the most back stabbing rumor spreading and hypocritical group i've ever met, i'd rather hang out with drug dealers at least i know which way they are gonna go

2. Satan wont let me in, hes afraid i'll take over

as they say, ya thou i walk thru the valley of the shadow of death, i shall fear no evil, for i am the evilest mutha%#$#er in the valley

misunderstood,misinterpretted, and mis guided maybe but i'm rather happy with that, i am me, not a sheep in the herd with a book in one hand and the flesh of christ in the other.

Now, if what you say is true and god loves us, and protects us, shouldnt we in theory get one last chance upon death to announce our sins and proclaim him our one true god? do you really think that we must go thru life all of us the whole world and guess if we are appeasing god? how do you know he wants you to give to the church? maybe he sees them corrupt? how about all the little kids who are brutally beaten and murdered by parents or psychos, the horrors i've seen would leave your little gumdrop and lollipop land in shreds, do you think a little boy who was molested by a priest needed that? do you think it fullfills his need for sorrow, hurt and pain so that he can be a better adult? how about you take alook around, a real look around and see the pain and suffering of the WORLD, see the devastation that religion has caused, the lack of knowledge it has instilled, yes it can bring us together but has it ever? no it hasnt, its driven a wedge between us and everyone else around us causeing more of the same, so you can claim you love god, thats just fine, just shows me who i need to step on first when the time comes to lead follow or get out of the way.

J~

^^I like your style, J. I think I may just give you reign of the Grim Nalthak regions of hell (where they torture the jewish fundamentalists), next to Froq Harinne (Where they torture the Televangelists and other Christian conservatives--which is right up GAM's alley), and Sarkkath Meiroon (For Event--whish is where the torture all past boy-band members)




Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

J,
The message is quite clear of what you need to do to get to Heaven. We don't have to just hope we have pleased God and find out when we die. It is written, belief in His Son along with a manifestation of faith through the way you try to live in following the Word's teachings.

I am sorry you have met so many back stabbing Christians. I would say if they sway one way one day and the other the next, then they must be human and not God. This is why we need a Saviour because we sin. Do not base your beliefs in God by the bad you see people doing. Some who claim to be Christian, may not be. Others are battling that which we are called to persevere through, which is the temptations of evil. One day they will do well and the next they may gossip. But if they repent and are trying to overcome the wrong then that is a good sign of sincere faith. We are blessed to have many strong Christians if you are looking to see God in them. Read about the saints. Visit a few churches and I am sure you will come across some with godly hearts.
All that garbage that goes on is awful, but it is free will and the Lord lets us do as we desire. No Christian denies the evil here, and that doesn't disprove God. He permits it to uphold His laws of creation-free will. Hopefully not but if you find yourself in what would be considered sin think if it was God who made you do it, and then think about other sins that seem worse such as molestation, and know it is just another darkness by one who has deeper problems. Some sick stuff out there, we are all in the sin boat no matter the sin and we all need to repent as we have the option to be saved because Jesus took our place on the cross as the lamb without blemish being sacrificed for the sins of all. All that we need to do is believe in Him and follow Him.
Most important, we do not get to decide after we die if we are going to believe in God. To choose Him after being there would defeat the whole purpose of faithand living this life. Faith is called faith for a reason. We are to persevere through this life with it. This is why the message is so important of repent and be saved before you die. This is why priests often visit those on their death beds because it is the last chance for unbelievers. I knew a pastor who went to a death bed, ask the guy if he would consider God and repent. The guy said no and went into a coma. The pastor prayed that he might wake one more time so he could try to share the gospel message one more time so this man would be saved. The man did awake one more time and he still said no. After that he sooned died. He was given a chance during his whole life and there again in awaking from a coma before dieing yet he would not turn.
I totally know it is not easy to just believe, I was there too. But I do know God calls us to seek Him with sincere hearts. He is a God that answers. It is ok to pray for help to believe despite all that we see with our eyes in this world. Search all before it is too late. Peace.

Yino18 wrote:I knew a pastor who went to a death bed, ask the guy if he would consider God and repent. The guy said no and went into a coma. The pastor prayed that he might wake one more time so he could try to share the gospel message one more time so this man would be saved. The man did awake one more time and he still said no. After that he sooned died. He was given a chance during his whole life and there again in awaking from a coma before dieing yet he would not turn.

Whenever people are dieing or are on their deathbeds, they seem to come in contact with an instinctive need-to-survive quandary where they all of a sudden judge their own lives accordingly. I think it is beyond admirable how you can never look for God or care about God in any way, then when you are dieing you can quickly develop faith in such a diety just as a ticket to get to Heaven. Do you honestly believe that? Out of all the situations where you could turn a non-believer into a believer, dieing would surely be the top of the list. I believe people who do that, who have the option to choose their faith as they are dieing, are doing it out of pure survival instinct. You can't fathom death until it's happening to you, and then of course you're going to do or say whatever you can when you realize there might really *be* a Hell and you might *be* going to it.

Why should someone turn before they die? Because their beliefs and their feelings and their so-called "free will" don't match up against the power of faith? Then that means the -entire- purpose of being on Earth is making one huge faith-based decision and facing an ultimatum delivered by a diety and told in a book that is thousands of years old. Yes, this is what it boils down to. Earth is just some kind of religious petting zoo, and you can make the choice of eating the meat and vegetables given to you by the handlers and never second guessing it, or you could go to the corner, set up the barbecue pit, and pull up a truck with a 50" DLP in the bed (that's where I'll be).

So yeah, I'll plan on it right now; I'm going to be like this my whole life until I get diagnosed with cancer. When it comes my time to die, I'll call a priest in, convert, and be saved. Hallelujah.

Yino18 wrote:I totally know it is not easy to just believe, I was there too. But I do know God calls us to seek Him with sincere hearts. He is a God that answers. It is ok to pray for help to believe despite all that we see with our eyes in this world. Search all before it is too late. Peace.

Oooooh, before it's too late, huh? Sounds like some kind of idle threat, which I'm used to by now from people aflame with religion. "Find God now - before it's too late". I've actually seen that slogan on some gypsy Christian camp back home. If you can't win by faith, win by threats, that always works better. Plus, what have you got to lose? Believe, live your life by Christ (how's that free will doing?) and you can get on the next rocket ship to Heaven.

If the only concern free-will has is what decision you're ultimately going to make in the end, then free will is a load of crap, it's a bad sell. Free will to make your own decisions, I understand that, but does it really matter what decisions we make now if we're all just fine-tuning ourselves for the afterlife?

I find a rediculously vague comparison of God to the mob. Pay up (via faith) and you will be protected. Don't pay up, and the threats start and who knows where you're going, but good luck there.

Now, honestly, I don't have a problem with you being a Christian. You could be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Lesbian (preferably) and do whatever you like and I wouldn't care. But do not preach. Preaching is cheap and if anything pushes me further away from any kind of divine path.

It's not as simple as repent and be saved.. Well, it is and it isn't.

If you have no faith in God then you are outside of God's sight. Basically in Hell. For a physical being, that's not so bad, as all of God's creation still surrounds you, and you can still enjoy it. When you die, you have nothing.

Believing in God puts you into his sight and gives you the oportunity to repent your wrongdoings and ask forgiveness. God, being wise and merciful will know if you are sincere or not and go from there. Believers do not get a ticket straight to Heaven, as we all carry sin of some kind and to varying degrees. God will not dwell with sin and so if you are to be with God in the afterlife then you must be cleansed of that sin. This could be quite the turmoil.. Maybe as simple as reliving your sin and seeing why it was wrong, and who you hurt with it etc. or as nasty as passing threough the lake of fire for a little bath. We simply don't know. What we do know is that nobody is without sin, and sin does not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Accepting God on your death bed is not an ideal solution as you will have to face up to all of your sins as you have never repented anything. That would be a rough ride.

Lets say you had a team.. A sports team of some kind. There is a player on that other team and they suddenly, in the last game of the season want to play for you. Well, you could use another player, and they were at least average, so you accept them. Do you make them part of every play? Do you really trust them? Are you convinced of their desire to play on your team just like that? I didn't think so. So while their on the team, they don't get all the privilage of the long-term players, at least not before proving themselves.

PAX

Well said Hahahaha. I add....

True conversion before death does happen to some, and the Lord knows each person's heart. Therefore He isn't fooled by one who says I believe just to calm the fear of hell. To believe, one needs God's grace and God knows who has His Spirit in them confessing true belief. Calling a pastor in when on your deathbed with cancer will not lead to Heaven if you do not sincerely believe.

Many think that they can repent before they die, and live freely as ungodly through life. A child of the Lord with true faith will not live that way because they are being led by the Spirit to live a clean and sincere life of trying to do well and repenting when they fail. One who is truly saved on their death bed by confessing belief, obviously will not have much life to live on earth as a godly person, but they are still saved because of their faith. And had they recovered they would go on living and becoming more like Jesus by the work of the Spirit changing their heart. (this is just to hit on the faith and works topic)

I can't express how you have misread my "before its too late." I am not threatening you at all. That makes it sound like some cult who forces things upon people. Never does the Lord do that nor do I intend to. I pray for you with my heart, I don't threat you.
The slogan is the same way, it is just trying to bring people to consider life. If you had a child you would not want him or her to fall into the fire, so you would warn them if they were close to the bomb fire like the slogan does. In the same way God puts a love in His children's hearts to care for others and not want them to fall into the "fire." What gain is there for me who does not know your name or location... to have you saved or not? Is it fame, or money? My concern for you is not for my gain (other than the joy in serving the Lord), my only concern is how much I want all to know the true peace and understanding of all the good in God's love, and to be saved.

I am not sure I am understanding your question on free will. I know each decision you freely make will effect your choices later. So you will not make "free will" decisions now that will not effect your final outcome. An example, taking a job in place a over place b will then effect you in the people you meet and the direction you travel from there on.

If a brother and sister did not speak up (aka preach) to a sibling who was maybe on a path that leads to worse, how would they be showing their love for them or honoring their father or mother. Believers try to teach all because of thier concern and love. Of course watch out for the money hungry cults and such that you hear taking 10 week vacations with your money. But as for the true believers with sincere hearts, try to understand and respect that all they do is care for you, and they don't ever intend to drive you away. It is just your response to them that will make you strongly oppose them. And if you don't believe what they tell you, still try to respect their concern, but do not hate them for caring to try and teach. One other thing, some may try to teach in an ineffective way that just makes others hate and run from them more, but people need to overlook any ineffective teaching and understand what their motives are in their hearts such as saving a person.
any other thoughts? i am interested to hear and learn.

I'm going to quote the existentialist Albert Camus from his essay "The Stranger":

".. he seem so cocksure, you see. And yet none of his certainties was worth one strand of a woman's hair. Living as he did, like a corpse, he couldn't even be sure of being alive. It might look as if my hands were empty. Actually, I was sure of myself, sure about everything, far surer than he; sure of my present life and of the death that was coming. That, no doubt, was all I had; but at least that certainty was something I could get my teeth into - just as it had gotten it's teeth into me. I'd been right, I was still right, and I was always right. I'd passed my life in a certain way, and I might have passed it in a different way, if I'd felt like it. I'd acted thus, and I hadn't acted otherwise; I hadn't done x, whereas I had done y or z. And what did that mean? That, all the time, I'd been awaiting for this present moment, for that dawn, tomorrow's or another day's, which was to justify me. Nothing, nothing had the least importance, and I knew quite well why. He, too, knew why. From the dark horizon of my future a sort of slow, persistent breeze had been blowing towards me, all my life long, from the years that were to come. And on its way that breeze had leveled out all the ideas that people tried to foist on me in the equally unreal years I then was living through. What difference could they make to me, the deaths of others, or a mother's love, or his God; or the way a man decides to live, the fate he thinks he chooses, since one and the same fate was bound to "choose" not only me but thousands of millions of privileged people who, like him, called themselves my brothers. Surely, surely he must see that? Ever man alive was privileged; there was only one class of men, the priveleged class. All alike would be condemned to die one day; his turn, too, would come like the others'.."

I feel a wholeheartedness with Camus and also with Kierkegaard and their thoughts upon this. This is simply a quote I felt was relevant to the topic at hand.

yino18 wrote:Many think that they can repent before they die, and live freely as ungodly through life.

I will agree with you here, I have never believed that in such a thing as the afterlife one can make a momentous decision in such a short amount of time. That's what I am saying, most people who are faced with death will make whatever decision they feel is right, no matter how cavalier the moment or the principle on which they make it under. But, no, I think that if you're going to be a religious person, it is in your best interest to dedicate your life to that religion or belief and not shrug it off until the last second. You obviously are a dedicated person, which is respectable.

yino18 wrote:I can't express how you have misread my "before its too late." I am not threatening you at all.

Unfortunately, anything consistent with an ultimatum seems threatening to me. "Or else" almost always is on the principle of the issuing of an ultimatum. Used car dealers having a huge Memorial Day weekend sale, buy now at these great prices - or else. Or else what? Or else we lose some money? Or else the world economy is destroyed? Or else the entire human race backward-evolves? We don't really know, so take it as it is - an ultimatum. That is exactly what it is, and although the tone and repose of your sentence is not exactly threatening in nature, the words "or else" are just unignorable. Find God or else what? Or else go to Hell? Or else not proceed to the afterlife? Or else not save a few bucks on a new car? When it comes to God, we do not operate on certainty, we operate on faith, so we are not exactly positive of what happens. Anyone that says they know what happens says so under the premise of faith. I am happy you meant what you said in such a jovial and helpful way; however, many things stem from interpretation, and my interpretation of your sentence seems like an ultimatum, and it is.

Not knowing God or where we go doesn't exist only in agnostics such as myself, but also in other religions. Ahura Mazda, the God of Zoroastrianism, is considered vast and incomprehenisible and guarantees only a life on Earth. The same goes for Allah, the God of Islam, and for the God of Bah�i.

yino18 wrote:That makes it sound like some cult who forces things upon people.

Unfortunately, I also find a loose bond between religions and cults.

yino18 wrote:I pray for you with my heart, I don't threat you.

Please don't waste your prayers on me now; it is better to burn than to disappear.

yino18 wrote:I am not sure I am understanding your question on free will. I know each decision you freely make will effect your choices later. So you will not make "free will" decisions now that will not effect your final outcome. An example, taking a job in place a over place b will then effect you in the people you meet and the direction you travel from there on.

If God is the guy running this show and he has blessed us all with free will, this free will ultimately only leads to whether or not we have lived the right life or not. So our "free will" is nothing more than stepping stones to whether we ascend or descend. If that is all free will, if that is all Earth is is some kind of judging ground, then count me out. Brainwash me and lead me to whatever life is right, I suppose. Currently, my job, day-in and day-out is helping people with disabilities. I don't steal, kill, do drugs, drink excessively, fight, look down on others, make fun of other people's beliefs, etc.. Yet still I'm going to die and I'm going to go to Hell. Fine. Have I often wished there was an afterlife? Of course I have. Everybody has that wish at times. But that had no more importance than wishing to be rich, or to swim very fast, or to have a better-shaped mouth. It was in the same order of things. How do I picture life after the grave? A life in which I can remember this life on Earth. That's all I want of it.

From another post of mine:

To believe in what you do not physically perceive you must have faith, it is the fundamental basis for all religions. I am like you, I have no faith in a higher power such as what most people think. But, you have to consider the question first of all - do I need verification of my existence or assurance of a higher power? No, I don't. I'll tell you what I have faith in - I have faith in myself, the people I know who will do right, and the things that are quantifiably in the bounds of my control. I don't need reassurance - I am just.

As many people know already, I am an agnostic. Having decided that theism and atheism are equally based on assumptions rather than observation, it's fair to ask if the central tenet of agnosticism might, likewise, be a bald assertion. The answer, quite simply, is that it is not. To say that the existence of God is uncertain, is based upon the observation that there is no proof, or disproof, of God's existence. In the face of a lack of evidence either way, one cannot assume that either proposal is true. This is a reasonable, logical conclusion, thoroughly rational, which makes no assumptions, and which does not engage in interpretation.

Quote from a website:

"A lot of people maintain their belief in a deity — in spite of their own doubts, or the irrationality of believing in something that's non-demonstrable — because it gives their lives " meaning." I must ask the obvious question:

Who says that life has to have meaning?

'Meaning' can only be inferred, it is not inherent. To look at the world, and one's life, and decide that it has some particular "meaning," is an erroneous inference, a baseless assumption. As an example, take the statement:

Jugebble megola varin os makudafuppel.

What does it mean? Are you able to figure it out? Are you dying to know? Or even just curious? Well, set your mind at ease; it doesn't mean anything! I just made up those words — they're gibberish. But — human instinct is to attempt some sort of interpretation; they're words, after all, and a collection of words must mean something."

you're limiting yourselves.

It's not as simple as with or without God, because as an intangible, it's hard to say what is with and what it without God. Even so, taking on your "different fingers on the same hand" philosophy, hahaha, it could also be said that the afterlife, if you're basically good, is what you make of it--hence Buddhists reach Nirvana, while Christians reach Heaven. As such, can it really be said that if you're not Christian you go to hell--especially taking the "different fingers on the same hand" philosophy into consideration?

I think it's arrogant to think as such, especially since taking God as an intangible, how do we know what is truly God's way and what isn't. After all, if we assume that only good Christians are saved from damnation, does that mean everyone that existed before Christ goes to hell?

I sincerely doubt that. I think if there is a God, God speaks to everyone on a level they can understand, and if they are true to that, then they get whatever they believe is the good afterlife, and if not, they get the bad of it.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Quote:

as we all carry sin of some kind and to varying degrees.

Just a quick question for you Hahahaha. I always believed that all sin was the same wrong in God's eyes, that all sin is on the same level to God. Obviously we can't know what God sees or thinks. But I was wondering what your opinion is, does your comment here represent that sins are on different levels of extremes..?

Keeper.. Once you face God, can there be many paths anymore? Or do you have a massive revelation that everything you thought was close but not quite right? Let's face it, regardless of how much we know about God, it's but a drop in the bucket. Like peering though a crack in a door, we learn about the room, but from a very limited perspective, there is much we do not see, I'm sure.

Sin is supposed to be equal, but then we have the church defining various types of sin. Motal sin, deadly sin, venial sin.. I can't really answer the question. My guess is that all sins are equal in God's eyes, but the way they affect our own lives is not at all equal. That is a tough one.

I have to run off to work now, but I look forward to a further discussion of this.

PAX

That aways assuming there is a God--the possibility goes either way--the probability is depending on your persectve. Further, using your analogy:

We'll have to assume that no one on this side of the crack has been on the other side of the crack and knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what is really on the other side, we can only take things as our perceptions' value: We first of all, have no evidence that it is a room; we can't see all of the walls. We can guess, but guesses can be wrong. Further, we have no idea as to whether or not what we're looking at is real--it could be a puckture around the crack and if that's all we can see, we can infer that is the truth when ity's only a small segment of it.

So, as such, since it is very limited we can never be sure: We can't be sure that there is a God, much less what it claims to be (acording to the bible), much less the only one.

As such, IMHO you can't limit yourself to preordained possibilities. Any religion out there, from the cults that people look at with disdain to the huge religions that affect--or try to affect everyones' lives could be right, and they could also all be wrong. It is further the possibility that everyone's concept of what is, is so far off base that we'd be bewildered to find out what it is.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

keeper- The Bible speaks of Christ preaching to those who were dead yet not condemned to hell when Jesus had died. During those 3 days after crucified Paul the apostle says Jesus did not go to Heaven yet but to those spirits in a type of prison that was not hell. Type of prison, because the way to Heaven was not open until Christ rose from the dead and defeated death.

in response to duaLife, but for everyone as well
Interesting article from Ablert Camus. I once would speak pretty much in the same way. We can't believe without the grace that gives faith. Yet all are able to seek this grace by prayer. Therefore, one can only write in this matter as all these believers seem lost and as if they are not using their eyes. Trust me; God opens your eyes in a way you can't reason. So Albert could only speak as he did because without faith one must try to reason it out with their brain and they cannot get what is not from reason which is faith that comes from God.

Faith is a choice. As an ultimatum I agree, we ultimately believe or don't, but I don't see how that is bad. We must choose one or the other and hope all is well with our ultimate choice. The "or else" is real because in a believer's view the "else" is hell and eternity without God. An ultimatum may seem threatening and truly in this case there is a great fear as we believe God is the Judge. He calls us to His love and ways from the love He has for us His creation, not just to threaten, however it is threatening in itself to go against Him because He must justly punish those who deny their creator and Savior. In a car sale the "else" is of minimal or no loss at all.

I am quite certain we remember life on earth when in the next life-heaven or hell. That is excellent that you live a good life, helping others and such. However we are so far from the purity of God and for this we need a Savior to make atonement. Ever lusted, lie, been jealous, had hatred, swore in vain, gossiped...ect. These though are not to the degree of murder and the like; they are still eternally far from the purity of God.

I guess free will could be called stepping stones. We choose which stone at each moment. Though we have a many chances sometimes a life of 80 years to repent if we choose a bad stone that was a mistake because of His great patience. Truly one sin is enough to justly send us to hell, but He is compassionate and merciful. There are more than enough stories of people (I could say myself too and probably all believers) of how their life use to consist more of the wrong choices that were evil. Some have murdered people and been brought back by His mercy and their whole life has truly changed. Amazing power there is between good and evil. He didn't want us to be robots and brainwashed, but to choose with free will. What is more gratifying, your son choosing you and honoring and loving you freely because they see the noble nature and love you have as a father, or brainwashing your robot type child into automatically coming to you? Free will is something incredible He let exist in us.

Faith in oneself is good but it is dangerous if taken too far as we are so vulnerable to mistakes and our brains are so limited in knowledge. Such as an ant trying to say a person isn't real (as the ant can't reason the person being so much more) and they can handle life for themselves when a person could just stomp them out of existence. We are like ants compared to God and possibly more, so our conclusions from reason don’t go very far.

As for the meaning argument, a division is here. A believer believes there is a reason for all that happens. To not believe and think there is no meaning seems empty. Emptiness is real and quite depressing. People with depression search for help in medicine. All the souls that ever wondered the reason for existence or the power behind all the forces in life (such as love, miracles, and the different gifts people have...ect.) will naturally search for their answer which is not medication but perhaps a God. Why do things have to have a meaning? Well they don’t I suppose. A gutter has basically one meaning, to collect rain from the roof, so we don’t need to search that too much more. But we are naturally curious beings with the ability to reason. People can’t help but use their brain power to figure things out, create things, and search for a God that they may feel in their souls. Many go astray in looking for meaning without the grace of truth from His Spirit guiding us. Why do we exist? Christianity teaches for His glory and love.

I am not sure how to explain that people often feel emptiness and seek God in prayer and then come to find something that is complete. One's life is depressing, they try all the worldly pleasures and still feel empty, and then they find a fulfillment that is not explained so clearly in words to an unbeliever. I personally vouch for this. I was depressed for years, I wondered if God was even real and at one moment asked "God if you are there and are real as I don't even feel you now, then show me and heal me." Then next day my depression was gone and has never returned. Along came so many blessings in so many ways I honestly cannot count them. His Spirit gave me the power to clean up and still is cleaning up all my struggles of sin. Without His grace I was before powerless and often could care less to see and believe I was committing so many sins. For example, ever try saying “today I will quit lusting”, how long did that last? It reminds me of people saying I will start working out now. Typically they cannot last more than two weeks. They have no real power to do it. It is either in you or not to keep working out. If one does become cleaner though not a believer, a believer will credit this to the grace given to them by God. We believe the Lord has a common grace (as opposed to the sanctifying grace aka grace that brings salvation) that many possess even if they don't believe, which is for the sake of His purposes such as conserving some goodness here and to not let total chaos result from our human evil desires that would lead to so much worse-all hating and fighting all. Sometimes this grace is the first sign of one changing or being a future child of the Lord. Back to the story, I know this was not simply a brainwash I did on myself because I can't tell you how many little tricks I tried in the years before to heal my depression. I do like that to reflect on that prayer because I humbly admitted I was unable to believe on my own or heal myself.
Of course not all will be depressed and find God that way. I have non-believing friends who seem quite happy. Yet the darkness creeps into other areas and hopefully they will come to acknowledge any struggles or unhappiness they may have.

I like how you have given some good thought to all this. I think you might find some theology books interesting. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologia is a good one along with many others that look at both sides very well.

This is getting long, but I will just insert a part of another post I had written to try and show you a miracle they may help some wonder and seek. I hope by now you know that I have no desire to lie to you and waste our time-I want to go eat some cookies actually. I fear though as the Jesus says in the Bible-even if they see miracles they will not believe.

"God may use natural laws to produce a miracle which science can explain such as how it happens yet not why it ever came to be such as birth. God may also perform a miracle that is not within any science known by man. A true story for you. There are many more amazing details that I will not write about due to length. My good friend's dad had a terminal disease when in the air force and he had to leave because of this condition. He one day in his darkness moment after losing his license to fly anywhere and after being told he couldn't have children because of this condition, and after a divorce didn't know if God existed, and asked if God was there and if so if he could get some help. All of sudden for about two minutes the whole room lit up and he felt and incredible warmth like hot oil be poured within his body. Went to the doctor soon after and his condition was gone. He still gets a monthly check from the air force because this condition has no logical "human science" cure. He flew for United for over 20 years because the condition was gone. Now I know you unbelievers are going to try and wrap this into an explanation. If I am a Christian then I know what comes if I lie, so I have no motive to lie, and the dad (and his whole family) in this true story is also Christian whom I know to be true Christians. Have faith that you will not find in explanations."

YINO:

Can you prove to me that that happened? or is it somethign that you can only feel as truth and not prove as fact?


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

If you are talking about my depression turn around then I would say my many years of experience in feeling depressed would be factual enough to say I was depressed. And my instant turn around after that prayer while all other methods failed would be factual enough to say I am no longer depressed as it has been years since. Are you asking me to prove faith, because I have faith in this clarity.

If you are referring to my friend's dad then the proof is him being diagnosed with a terminal illness and started to receive that check from the air force, and then being healed and alive still (which is about 30 years or so since diagnosed while they said he had little time left) while still receiving that check.

I know it is hard to believe. I would be critical too of one's feeling over fact. I am not crazy, nor are many who have stories of healing that come from God and no where else. Of course you must watch for the false money hungry "tv healers," those who are insincere certainly give Christianity a bad rap, not as if they are living in a Christian manner anyways. God knows each one's heart, so they can only deceive for a little while.

no no no I don't question your faith--no more than you could/should question, say, my belief in ghosts (i have experienced them). I could not ask you to prove your experience any more than you could ask me to prove mine (why it's a Truth and not a Fact).

What I do ask you to prove is did what happened with Jesus really happen? Is there any proof *other* than the bible?

Again, i don't question your faith--i can't (i haven't walked an inch--muct less a mile in your shoes). I'm just asking is what you base your faith in something that you believe happened, or was it something that without a shadow of a doubt *did* happen--and if so, where's the proof of it?

Nothing wrong with either--but if it's something you believe in, then it's not something that everyone can--or should embrace. Everyone must walk their own Path.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Geeze, yino. You made a post with no horrific typing errors, cursing, or implementation of a derogatory tone. You are in trouble of becoming an alright person. Usually everyone I post back-and-forth to on here (pretjah, jbody4jc) have their heads up their ass, so it's refreshing to see a post like that. I'll have to read it more in depth later on when I get home from work.

Keeper, I think that the you know the answer to that. You know from where our beliefs begin and end...faith. You have faith in knowing that God is going to bless you, so in when you realize that it has been bestowed on you, you bless him with your praise. As for trying to prove that it really happen with physical evidence, or science is virtually impossible. I hope I'm staying on point with this little discussion!


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."