Quote:
Saddam - Innocent (but annoying) - on trial.
I wouldnt say he is innocent, he should rot in jail just for his crimes against humanity.
John Wilken wrote:
If you were Saddam, the leader of a country in the middle of the most violent part of the world, and you didn't have wmd's, would you want it published in every newspaper in the world? His scheme was to pretend to have big guns so none of his neighbors would invade Iraq. The plan backfired, the US invaded.
Iran could have marched in at any point, and I doubt the US, UN or anyone would have stopped it.
It was a bad plan.
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SunfireN2o wrote:Bush knows Saddam hates us, Inspectors cant see everything. Bush feels he has to do something, which is to invade. However many years later we still havent found the WMD's all that intel was telling us. Maybe the intel was wrong, not Bush???? I just dont see how it is all his fault that is all, enlighten me or whatever just dont flame me for having a different way of seeing it.
The intel was wrong, Bush admitted that in a news conference.
This is my problem with Bush... We sent troops to hunt for Osama, the man behind the 9/11 attacks against the US. For whatever reason, Bush decided that he's had enough of Saddam and sent our troops to Iraq.
I don't remember Bush admitting that, but it's been shown that every source that said that Iraq had WMD's (there was one... Yes... ONLY ONE. Germany, Russia and Britain all got the same information from the same guy, who had a real axe to grind with Saddam personally.) was proven to be false, as the source had no access to any of the sites that were suspected of housing WMD.
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IF Saddam actually had wmd's, he wasn't using them against the US. No reason for war.
IF Saddam didn't have wmd's, he was just being a pain in the a$$ with weapon inspectors. Again, no reason for war.
Actually, in the 6 Months prior to the invasion, Iraq was giving unfettered and unrestricted access to every site that inspectors wanted. It was in Hans Blix's report to the UN.
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And to top it all off, Osama is still on the loose. Someone who has actually caused attacks against the US, not rumored to have a BB gun or something that no one can find.
Handy that, the boogey man is still on the loose. I don't remember the specifics, but apparently there was intel that Bin Laden was in Tora Bora about 3-4 days before the US troops started moving there. I forget the actual story, but I seem to remember that there were orders to secure another area first. I may be wrong on that.
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Osama - Guilty - free.
Saddam - Innocent (but annoying) - on trial.
Somehow this doesn't sit well with me.
Well, Saddam was hardly innocent. He's not on trial for smuggling or Posessing WMD's by the UN, he's on trial for the gassing of Northern Iraqi Kurds and the murders/rapes his regime ordered and undertook during his time in power.
The Invasion sets a pretty ominous precident though. This time there was an excuse for the US to invade, but what about the next time an oil rich country runs afoul of the US's energy needs?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Gam, I'm not so sure. The CIA and FBI and local police don't like each other one bit and would all have been wanting this as a notch in there favor and screw the other guys
The intell sharing is one of those "good things" Bush has brought about and myself I'm glad he did or I may not be here right now to impart all my wisdom on you guys.
Yes that was a joke!
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
Quote:
The intel was wrong, Bush admitted that in a news conference.
This is my problem with Bush... We sent troops to hunt for Osama, the man behind the 9/11 attacks against the US. For whatever reason, Bush decided that he's had enough of Saddam and sent our troops to Iraq.
I don't remember Bush admitting that, but it's been shown that every source that said that Iraq had WMD's (there was one... Yes... ONLY ONE. Germany, Russia and Britain all got the same information from the same guy, who had a real axe to grind with Saddam personally.) was proven to be false, as the source had no access to any of the sites that were suspected of housing WMD.
Bush "fell on his sword" for the republican party during a state of the union address. He apologized for following incorrect intel for the basis of the Iraq invasion.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Quote:
IF Saddam actually had wmd's, he wasn't using them against the US. No reason for war.
IF Saddam didn't have wmd's, he was just being a pain in the a$$ with weapon inspectors. Again, no reason for war.
Actually, in the 6 Months prior to the invasion, Iraq was giving unfettered and unrestricted access to every site that inspectors wanted. It was in Hans Blix's report to the UN.
OK, "Allowing weapons inspections,
still no reason for war".
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Quote:
And to top it all off, Osama is still on the loose. Someone who has actually caused attacks against the US, not rumored to have a BB gun or something that no one can find.
Handy that, the boogey man is still on the loose. I don't remember the specifics, but apparently there was intel that Bin Laden was in Tora Bora about 3-4 days before the US troops started moving there. I forget the actual story, but I seem to remember that there were orders to secure another area first. I may be wrong on that.
I've heard the same.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Quote:
Osama - Guilty - free.
Saddam - Innocent (but annoying) - on trial.
Somehow this doesn't sit well with me.
Well, Saddam was hardly innocent. He's not on trial for smuggling or Posessing WMD's by the UN, he's on trial for the gassing of Northern Iraqi Kurds and the murders/rapes his regime ordered and undertook during his time in power.
By "innocent", I meant "hasn't commited crimes against the US", not that he's Mother Theresa. Other countries have worse dictators, it's not the responsibility of the US to police the world.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:The Invasion sets a pretty ominous precident though. This time there was an excuse for the US to invade, but what about the next time an oil rich country runs afoul of the US's energy needs?
Depends on who is president. If we get another "bully with a chip on his shoulder", he'll find another excuse to go to war.
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Aside from all the multinational bull@!#$ muddying up the waters, let's just put it this way.
As someone who makes international calls, and international e-mails on a regular basis, the last thing i want is some over-hyped monkey giving some pimply-faced dweeb the rights to listen in on my conversations with my g/f. Does that make me safer? Nope.
So, since they are probably listening in to this thread anyway...i would like to shout this one out to all the members of the cabinet, the FCC, members of congress, the FBI, CIA, FEMA, and to the executive branch itself...
GO BOB SOME SKULL ON THE SNOTTY END OF MY @!#$TICK!!!!!!!
The following opinion does not necessarily refelect the views of JBO, its members, its moderators, its afflitates, or its owners; it reflects the sole opinion of KOTL, Viewer discretion is advised.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Aside from all the multinational bull@!#$ muddying up the waters, let's just put it this way.
As someone who makes international calls, and international e-mails on a regular basis, the last thing i want is some over-hyped monkey giving some pimply-faced dweeb the rights to listen in on my conversations with my g/f. Does that make me safer? Nope.
X2. 100% with you on this.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]So, since they are probably listening in to this thread anyway...i would like to shout this one out to all the members of the cabinet, the FCC, members of congress, the FBI, CIA, FEMA, and to the executive branch itself...
GO BOB SOME SKULL ON THE SNOTTY END OF MY @!#$TICK!!!!!!!
Subtle...
I would like to commend you for encouraging government officials to exercise their neck muscles. Maybe the presidential council for physical fitness could adopt this as part of their plan. They could put it right after the section where they ask the American public to bend over, it's called the "Patriot Act" exercise.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]The following opinion does not necessarily refelect the views of JBO, its members, its moderators, its afflitates, or its owners; it reflects the sole opinion of KOTL, Viewer discretion is advised.
Ahh, the right to peaceful protest must unfortunately be covered by disclaimers.
Footnote on the Constitution: "Light fuse and get away".
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
<makes a sweeping bow>
Thank you...and thanks for pointing out that i did forget "West side...", although i'd have to go with the hometown favorite of Sir Mix-a-lot
Seattle ain't bull@!#$tin'
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
The american people have always been safe. The last time we were truly threatened was in the civil war, and maybe the war of 1812 but that was our fault for trying to take Canada.
The cold war was a bad time, but take it from Russia's point of view. The USA was establishing military bases all over the world, while the USSR well....had very few that weren't on Soviet soil. Paranoia can get you in trouble fast.
We are insulated from the world, so its no wonder we have a rosy picture of everything and wonder why everybody else is so angry.
Has George Bush made us safe? Even with 9/11 that was not really that big an attack, just a very embarassing one.
Our responses were huge in comparison. The afghan war made 1 million refugees, and the iraqi conflict has killed 100,000 people and displaced a million more. The fallujah siege alone killed 10,000 civilians and forced 300,000 people from their homes and thats just one of many.
Bush hasn't helped things, he's angered our allies, alienated folks who generally didn't care one way or the other, and inflamed enemies further. Foreign policy should be based on acting nice, even if some of the other nations are acting like idiots. You get more done that way.
I've always believed the USA's main failure with foreign policy is that it based its military conquests on economic and business factors. The military should only be used in the defense of human rights, but it has always been an arm of big business interests. Just look at every war since our independence and you can see that somebody made money off that war.
Bush is an idiot. Cheney is an idiot. Anyone that voted for him is an idiot.
And yes Jack, I voted for the only other person I could... Kerry. Woulda voted for Nader, but he wasn't on the PA ballot.
Steve Savage and others have summed up my thoughts on Bush.
Excellent post btw Mr. Savage... couldn't have put it better. *Bows*
oh... and Keeper... absofreakinlutely hilarious!!!
Bush and his administration keeps throwing terrorism down our throats to try to scare people into thinking that nothing but the American people's best interests are at hand. BULL#$#$.
If anything we're MORE at risk with Bush in office... BECAUSE he's ticked off our allies, ticked off a lot of people, and made our enemies even more ticked off at us than they were previously.
THE US NEEDS to stop policing the world... period. We shoulda stuck with just finding Osama. There was NO NEED for Iraq to be invaded by us without UN backing... period... end of story. We need to concentrate more on the homefront and stop poking our darn noses in where it doesn't belong.
And yeah... this huge deficit for no reason whatsoever. Well not "NO" reason... but for an unnecessary one. Think of all that money that was used in our Iraq invasion that could have gone to more important things, like healthcare, education funding, etc.
Politicians... Poli in latin meaning many... tics meaning blood sucking creatures.
And yeah... if the government is watching... they can kiss my arse too. Help the rich and screw the "poor" and working class Americans my ARSE!!! that's bull#@$ too. Taking away our freedoms... BULL@#$#!!!! Totally wanting to ban abortion... BULL@#$#@!!!! Patriot Act... well you all can take that Patriot Act and hand it to me, so I can use it to wipe my arse. For our protection.... yeah right. Tell another lie why don'tcha!?!
Bush is an ass to be sure but as I've said so many times in the past here. And as I've said before presidencial elections as of late have not been to put the best person for the job in office but rather to keep the worse one out . Bush is an idiot true enough , but the traitor Kerry is far, far worse then he could even be.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Save our world, Plant a bush back in texas.
From his anti-American protests during the Veitnam war and his lying to get his purple hearts so he could get out. And then throwing his medals away on national TV as if they ment nothing at all. They may have ment nothing to Mr.Kerry but for the rest of us veterians a purple heart IS something and has a deep meaning and a value that a price can not be placed upon. He lied to get them and used them to get his cowardly butt out of Nam and then threw them away. That is a slap in the face to every service man and woman who has ever fought and died for this country. And if I were to ever be lucky enough to see his cowardly ass in person you can bet that I'd tell his sorry ass that to his face. I'm glad he was told basicly the same thing by the American people when they didn't put his sorry ass in the white house.
Now to cut you off before you throw out the "Well Bush never went to war at all " point let me stop you there by saying I'm well aware of that and I'm well aware of the fact that he may have indeed used his daddy to stay out of Nam. To that I say that all it does is also show his cowardous BUT being a coward does not make a traitor. A traitor is someone who turns his back on his country just as Mr.Kerry did. By lying at congressional hearings as to what he did and by slandering his fellow soldiers and dis-honoring what a purple heart stands for.
Bush = cowardly asshat
Kerry = cowardly traitor
Thats a BIG difference IMHO
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Has Bush made us safer?
What will our answer to that be once he sends troops to Iran?
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
John Wilken wrote:Has Bush made us safer?
What will our answer to that be once he sends troops to Iran?
.
Oh God I know ! ( shakes his head in dis-belief )
I'm just waiting on my official Canadien handbook and then I'm off to the frozen north.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
First, let me point out that Bush has lied to congress SINCE he's been in office, and many more times to the public.
The most visible and hardly disputable anymore is that he lied about Iraq before we went to war. There is simply a ton of documentation (start w/ Downing Street Memos) and witness accounts on all levels of government. It's clear and picked and choosed on intelligence to make his case. That is far more traitorous because he's put hundreds of thousands of lives at risk.
Don't get me wrong. The congress are equally the fools for believing him and letting him rush to war.
But being a fool > lying for war.
That's a HUGE difference, IMHO.
And let's not forget the illegally spying on American citizens and threatening the press with jail for outing all their illegal programs in the first place.
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Not gonna re-hash this again AGuSTiN. But I will say that at the time we went in the intell said one thing it was proven wrong not disputing that. I agree congress should have slowed down / stoped the rush to war but they did not so thats on them equily as Bush.
As for the spying thing AGuSTiN let me ask you, do you think the govt. never spied on us before this ? And without a warrent ? Saddly the answer is YES and DAILY. Anytime you drive down 295 past NSA your cell phone is listened to. Everytime you go down the GW parkway past Langly your listened to. Everytime you drive down 395 past the Pentagon your listen to. No warrent, No permission, No need, but they've done it for years and years and years. Evey since Langley's main gate was hit by terrorists and blown up they've been listening in on all cell phone conversations in the arses surronding the buildings. Noone says Boo about it tho and the govt just keeps right on spying.
Get used to it cause its been happening longer then you think it has. Its just come out and its not gonna change anytime soon.
Hello Big Brother. ( waves and then gives middle finger )
No AGuSTiN not to you
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:Not gonna re-hash this again AGuSTiN. But I will say that at the time we went in the intell said one thing it
See, right there is where you're wrong. The was more intel saying Iraq didn't have anything. There was pre-war documents stating that the US was going to war, period. You really need to read more about it. The press has done
the worst job covering this. Bush made a ton of very specific statements about Iraq, all which were false. Google "bush lied about iraq" and get started.
Quote:
As for the spying thing AGuSTiN let me ask you, do you think the govt. never spied on us before this ?
What does that have to do with anything? The reason this is all coming to forefront with Bush is because of his other programs trampling on our rights. I don't have to get used to it. @!#$ that. The deal here is these are brand new, president-authorized-and-devised plans of intrusiveness. It's on a whole new level. Your statement is a cop out.
The only amazing thing Bush has managed in his presidency is making the American public feel more scared of our own federal government than Al Quaeda.
How can Kerry of possible done worse that this?
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The govt. not just Bush looked at only the intell they wanted to see. The govt. as a whole efed up on that. Not just Bush.
Its not a cop out its a fact. The govt has been spying on us for years, its nothing new. They spy on our computer activity and listen in on our phone calls when ever they want to. Now that they are gonna focus on people calling Iran and Iraq or a middle eastern country rather then just listen in on me as I drive down 295. I see no difference at all other then now they can listen in to anyone in the whole country as opposed to just those in special areas. If your not calling the middle east and planning to blow sh-t up then they're still not listening in on you. So whats the problem?
As for Kerry being elected I already told you my problem with him just look up a couple of posts.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:
As for Kerry being elected I already told you my problem with him just look up a couple of posts.
I'll let the rest because you obviously don't want to read the truth, but I'll say this last... if you don't defend your rights, you will lose them. If someone was embezzeling from your company for the past 10 years and you just figured it out, would you say "oh well, just found it, might as well let it keep happening"? No, seriously doubt that.
Your problem with Kerry is that it ignores all that he has done since.
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I bet this is how the German people felt under Hitler's rule... Most of us don't agree with what Bush / government is doing, but we can't do anything to change it.
The government doesn't speak for the people anymore. We claim to have the best system but no one in power follows that system.
Maybe the US needs to lose a major war to remind people that the government is supposed to work for the people and not the interest of a few greedy politicians.
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
AGuSTiN, Dude its not just me! look around its most of the American public! We're the idiots who put these MORONS in office and we just let them take and take as much as they want. I agree with you on the spying sh-t man but what I'm getting at is WHAT CAN LITTLE OLD ME OR YOU DO TO STOP IT ? Not a whole hell of alot and the people aren't bitching enough for the govt. to give a fat rats ass. Now theres a nice rosie picture isnt it ? Do you think I'm happy with it ? Got news for you man I've already sent in a letter to my congressman what have you done to voice your opposition to it other then complain here? Cause as much as I'd love to help you out there brother I'm not the one to complain to. Thats would be those MORONS we elected.
As for Kerry, Your 100% correct, nothing he has done in the 30+ years exonerates him from his past deeds. Sorry.
And if you can come up with a way to stop the govt spying you just let me know what I can do to help you stop it and I got your back 110% of the way.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote:AGuSTiN, Dude its not just me! look around its most of the American public!
You're right, it's me you him her it's all of us.
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