If you read my post you would have seen that I FULLY understand it's not easy obtaining a legal citizenship here. I never said that latins are lazy and that's why they come here illegally. I'm italian/irish and I know of how poorly irish were treated here, itialians as well. In America's history, not nationality had it easy coming to this country. But all of my grandparents and great grandparents came here legally and waited until the day they were accepted.

I could also care less how many states have english as their first language. From the 20's till the 80's no schools allowed foreign students to speak anything but english. One of my professors at school out in California talked about how if they were caught speaking spanish they would get punished. That's how it should be now. It I was to move to Italy, you can bet your a$$ i'd learn to speak italian fluently. Can I speak some choppy italian now? yes, but I would find it very disrespectful if I moved to a country and someone from america expected me to adapt to their language.

In response to Tristans comment, I did not know that illegals pay into social security. I would like to see where you read this because If your working under the table, your boss doesn't want anyone to know your working there. So since the government doesn't know your in america (let alone working) why would the boss take out for Social Security? An Illegal immigrant working in a restaurant is like a ghost, no1 knows they're there. If the owner took out social security, It would send up a red flag to the IRS that someone that doesn't exist is paying into the system. Perhaps you have that confused with immigrants who come to this country on a work visa?

Also, I fully understand that pharmaceutical companies are crooked and corrupt and run this country (that's a topic I don't even want to get started on.. cure for diabeties in china yet pharmaceutical companies have patrols at ALL ports to keep the plant out of the U.S while they take millions of donations to find a cure?, that's a whole nother topic i could spend hours on.). And although they are corrupt, I cannot blame the hospital for charging me that amount. When you have illegals coming in DAILY (because they DO work most jobs that are at a higher risk of injury) who don't pay them, you gotta make your money somehow or when it comes time to actually save someones life, you won't have the means to do so.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

found a few errors in the post above, to clea things up in the first paragraph i meant to say "not one nationality had it easy when they first came over to America".

In the second paragraph I meant to say how It would be considered disrespectful if I moved to Italy and spoke choppy italian and expected italians to adapt to me and learn english. I should not have to learn a foreign language to work in America. If you want to speak any language in your house to to your family/friends, that is fine by me. I believe everyone should stay with their roots and be proud of who they are. But when it comes to school, work, interactions with anyone on the street. Use the english language.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

uecavyboy, here is an article from almost exactly a year ago from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=kmarx
Most illegal aliens have fake ids and green cards and social security cards. Since the crack down on aliens many years ago, they have been forced to get these papers so that their employers can claim ignorance when they hire them. In the nineties alone, there was over 200 billion dollars collected from bad social security numbers. Now, it's possible that some of that is not the result of aliens, but most of it is. Even though many argue that aliens dont pay taxes or social security, it simply isn't true. Some don't, but the majority do.

Also, in further response to your hospital comments, I can only say that aliens barely account for the insane amounts we have to pay. It's really quite minimal. If we were to fix our system it wouldn't even be a concern. Again, that's for another debate.

Most do pay into social security. You think that someone would say oh man, someone is paying into social security and they should not be? Let us put a stop to that! Never!Immigration is a big bussiness. Not only do they pay that but they also pay into taxes. Most even have tax ID's.
What was that number 10million illegals and a new law that might pass giving them all amnisty? Do you know how much the government is gonna make on this? Estimated $2000 off of every single immigrant for illegal stay in America. That is what $2,000,000,000.00 I think that's right 2 billion? Would that earn them the right to stay here? Not including all the other fees that they have to pay to get a green card.
It is not as easy as just coming to America and saying I wanna live here what do I have to do. You have everything working against you. The legal process is built to make money. To do one thing you have to do something illegal. That means staying here illegaly. It is no wonder why we have so many illegal immigrants in this country. Because they have no other choice. No way to pay lawyer fees or paper fees.
Baisically if you were able to become legal in America before this new law comes out it was because you eather got amnisty at some point, or you got married. That was the only way. You could not come here and just make a decision that you wanted to live here.
The whole point behinde that is that the goverment does not want any one person becoming a drain on the society. But what about half of the Americans in this country that live off of welfare, rip off insurance companys, collect food stamps and try to find every single way to not have to work.
If you ask me all those people should be kicked out of America instead of the immigrants.
But I went off on alot of things. I don't even know if I stayed on topic really. My ankle is twisted and I am on pain killers. Sue me LOL.

See this is why I posted in the first place. I like to learn about the other side. What you both said makes a lot of sense. My main thing isn't language it was about legal citizens footing the bill for everything, but i see now that illegal immigrants pay their way as well. As for those who are on welfare etc etc i agree they milk the system more than anyone. I think this country needs to make a lot of changes. The main issue is like what was said above, pharmaceutical companies and big business runs this country hands down. And whatever they see as the most prosperous for them, our government will continue to act the same.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

Don't tell me you're just cluing into the fact that money means a lot more than legal rights...




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

i'm not sure what you mean GAM




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

WEEZL wrote:The other thing we need to do, is accidentally blow up something in Mexico.

Sorry.....
You have been banned from posting on this site as of 2005-01-13 10:15:53.
This ban will expire 2005-01-14 10:15:35 Pacific Time.
Reason: Free 84 Cavi Drop Top!

Interesting. The ad appearing at the top of the page right says: Apply for US Citizenship today. It's fast and easy. I suppose it is spawned from key words in the page, but none the less quite amusing.

I think for some people it would have to hit closer to home for them to understand. People in D.C. don't have to deal with the negative/positive effects of illegal immigration than say, us here in Southern California.

Plain and simple, I cannot argue... I think they should not be here. This is a long way from me, but it's my g/f's uncle's father... whew. He came here illegaly in 1986... back when it wasn't such a problem. Ever since he got here he worked under the table at a factory for a little over 5 years before he started his own roofing business... with only him and his friend working there (how? I have no clue.. but trust me he did). Now, he has about 2 jobs a week. Not any of the income he receives is reported to the IRS. He has to pay no taxes... zilch! I do not see why anybody would be sympathetic to illegal immigrants unless you were of Hipsanic heritage.

It is wrong. They do not pay taxes. I pay my taxes and work and sweat every day so people like them can sneak into here and live off of it. And guess what happens when I go to the doctor? I have to wait and wait because they are so crammed and then I have to pay out the ass (even though it's a co-pay system through my insurance, it still sucks to pay).

I don't care if you are white, black, mexican, arabian.... anything. You need to come in legally. I don't want to treat them like animals, because if they were legal and were paying taxes and were struggling like some of us, I wouldn't mind at all. I don't believe in hand-outs... which is exactly what they are receiving. You do not go into a country where you are not legally allowed to me and demand that they change their ways to better suit you.

I see very educated Mexicans/Hispanics/whatever ( I dont really know the politically correct term ) who work very hard and strive to support their families.... I say congratulations to them... not because they are Mexicans, but because you can show that you have enough respect to help me out in my time of need. I'm sick of footing the bill for this @!#$. And the clowns in D.C. are too pansy-assed to do anything about it, so illegals will get their way and healthcare costs will sore, traffic will increase, as will pollution, and soon California will be just like Mexico..... oh boy I can't wait!

sorry sore should be *soar.

Not to sound like a complete jerk, but have read any of the comments in this thread, or just the first one and then posted? You girlfriend's father is one experience. Check out the NY Times article I posted above. The fact is that your one experience is in the minority. Most illegal aliens pay taxes and social security and medicare. All of that is money they will NEVER see. Nearly 200 billion dollars was payed into the social security system by illegal aliens in the nineties alone. Between 2000 and 2002 they payed over 150 billion into the system. Also, it has been thoroughly discussed in this thread that it is nearly impossible to work in the US legally. Even for our friends to the north.

My personal feeling is that this all boils down to a race issue. The fact is that these are Mexicans crossing the border and they're not white. If Canada treated their people like crap and we were dealing with Canadians flooding into our country to work the argument would be completely different because most Canadians are white and therefore not inferior to us. I know there are exceptions to this, but every conversation I have with people who cite off the same ignorant talking points of mexicans taking american jobs and never paying taxes or social security is preached by racists. They don't call themselves racist, but they are plain and simple. They make no attempt to actually study the argument. They just leap to kicking the dirty spanish speaking job stealing mexicans out of this country.

The facts are simple. Illegal aliens HELP this country far more than they could ever hurt it.

Tristan: I wouldn't go as far to say that they HELP our system. Like mike's story, there are many others similiar to his that come to my mind. However were both talking about southern california and in other states (arizona, texas, new mexico) it could be a different story. If it make me racist because I don't want an entire community coming across the border and taking over our country then so be it. Trust me, I'd be just as angry if Canadians, Italians, African's, French, and any other country did what the Hispanic community is doing. What people have to grasp is america is a melting pot of cultures. And I think it's wonderful that we have people from all countries, all colors, all proud of their heritage.

I do understand that many do pay into the system and I don't "foot the bill" for them like I had previously thought. I still have the overwhelming feeling that they are taking over this country though. Which does anger me. I feel there should be borders because you need them to define all the different cultures. Do I mind if people come to this country from other countries, no. Do i mind when people from other countries come to this country and refuse to adapt, YES. I now understand why illegals come here and that it's not as big of a threat as I had once believed, however please adapt to some of our customs like all other immigrants have done before.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

To an extent, I understand the concerns people like yourself have about illegal aliens at least somewhat adapting to the way things work in our country. Yes, it would be nice if they took to the time to learn English, which is the most widely spoken language. But on the other hand, it would be nice if Americans prided themselves on pursuing a good education and perhaps taking the time to learn other languages. I personally can speak Spanish and Chinese, though I'm still working on both.

As to my racism comment, what I mean is that people accept the "melting pot" idea, but only so long as the white people still make up the majority. Sure, we can let Italians, Asians, Africans, and maybe even a few Mexicans into our country, but only so long as they don't tip the scales in their favor. I honestly think that those of us who are white being in the minority for once would do a lot of good and teach MANY americans a serious lesson, especially for those who think that think they as white men or women are god's gift to the world.

And as for helping our system, they do exactly that. They do the jobs that Americans won't. If we kicked all of them out today, our economy would crumble. Americans want corporate jobs, or jobs in technology or specialized fields. Most have no desire to pick fruit and work on roofs all day. They pick up the slack in our country because someone still has to. They pay their way and keep America afloat. Therefore they help our country far more than they could harm it.

Mikedirntrulez wrote:I think for some people it would have to hit closer to home for them to understand. People in D.C. don't have to deal with the negative/positive effects of illegal immigration than say, us here in Southern California.

Plain and simple, I cannot argue... I think they should not be here. This is a long way from me, but it's my g/f's uncle's father... whew. He came here illegaly in 1986... back when it wasn't such a problem. Ever since he got here he worked under the table at a factory for a little over 5 years before he started his own roofing business... with only him and his friend working there (how? I have no clue.. but trust me he did). Now, he has about 2 jobs a week. Not any of the income he receives is reported to the IRS. He has to pay no taxes... zilch! I do not see why anybody would be sympathetic to illegal immigrants unless you were of Hipsanic heritage.

It is wrong. They do not pay taxes. I pay my taxes and work and sweat every day so people like them can sneak into here and live off of it. And guess what happens when I go to the doctor? I have to wait and wait because they are so crammed and then I have to pay out the ass (even though it's a co-pay system through my insurance, it still sucks to pay).

I don't care if you are white, black, mexican, arabian.... anything. You need to come in legally. I don't want to treat them like animals, because if they were legal and were paying taxes and were struggling like some of us, I wouldn't mind at all. I don't believe in hand-outs... which is exactly what they are receiving. You do not go into a country where you are not legally allowed to me and demand that they change their ways to better suit you.

I see very educated Mexicans/Hispanics/whatever ( I dont really know the politically correct term ) who work very hard and strive to support their families.... I say congratulations to them... not because they are Mexicans, but because you can show that you have enough respect to help me out in my time of need. I'm sick of footing the bill for this @!#$. And the clowns in D.C. are too pansy-assed to do anything about it, so illegals will get their way and healthcare costs will sore, traffic will increase, as will pollution, and soon California will be just like Mexico..... oh boy I can't wait!

i agree with that 100%... nicely put.




Check out my build thread!

Tristan, first and foremost. Not EVERY white person wants a corporate job and the rest of the fields you said. Not every white person has a college degree. Many are scratching to earn some money to support their familes. Manufacturing jobs, restaurant jobs, etc etc are the ONLY jobs that many americans can obtain. Sure a single father or mother might want a corporate job but because they had kids before they could attend college or perhaps their parents can't afford college, they rely on those jobs to keep their head above water. Many guys i know who never want to college work on roofs, work construction, and other forms of back breaking labor because it pays somewhat decent and it's all they can get.

On the first issue you brought up. I don't want to be the minority. And I don't mean i don't want only whites to be the minority. I mean any born american. Think about it. Would it be cool if all of a sudden italians became the minority in Italy? If Indians became the minority in India? If Chinese became the minority in China? That wouldn't fly with ANY race. I know for a FACT that many mexicans are angry at Americans that move to Mexico when they retire. They do that because it's cheap to live there and the weather is nice. Yet many mexicans are upset towards them because they don't take well to foreigners moving into their country. Yet it's ok if they flood into our west coast? And also i believe from a study that in california, whites are already the minority.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

Umm, I never said every white person wants a job in that field. I said that Americans want good jobs and barely any want to pick fruit or work on roofs or construction, because that's the truth. Most don't want to. My father works construction because that's all he can do and relies on his fiance to help support him. My mother makes 12 dollars an hour and I pay half the bills just so we can get by. But that's not because illegal immigrants stole their jobs. My father has his own company and cannot KEEP people employed. There simply are not enough people who want to do the work he does.

As for the Americans retiring in Mexico, I've never known people to do it or of Mexicans pissed off about it so I will make no statement about it because I simply don't know the facts.

uecavboy wrote:Tristan, first and foremost. Not EVERY white person wants a corporate job and the rest of the fields you said. Not every white person has a college degree. Many are scratching to earn some money to support their familes. Manufacturing jobs, restaurant jobs, etc etc are the ONLY jobs that many americans can obtain. Sure a single father or mother might want a corporate job but because they had kids before they could attend college or perhaps their parents can't afford college, they rely on those jobs to keep their head above water. Many guys i know who never want to college work on roofs, work construction, and other forms of back breaking labor because it pays somewhat decent and it's all they can get.

On the first issue you brought up. I don't want to be the minority. And I don't mean i don't want only whites to be the minority. I mean any born american. Think about it. Would it be cool if all of a sudden italians became the minority in Italy? If Indians became the minority in India? If Chinese became the minority in China? That wouldn't fly with ANY race. I know for a FACT that many mexicans are angry at Americans that move to Mexico when they retire. They do that because it's cheap to live there and the weather is nice. Yet many mexicans are upset towards them because they don't take well to foreigners moving into their country. Yet it's ok if they flood into our west coast? And also i believe from a study that in california, whites are already the minority.

That is absolutely true. Go anywhere in Southern California where the white flight hasn't occured (white flight is when an area is crowded by white people and then all of a sudden they leave for somewhere else... happened in my city within the past 10 years) and try to find Mexicans that talk to eachother in English. I was on the Metrolink today and probably 10 different mexican families sat in front of me.... not ONE spoke English to eachother. Alright, people may think "oh, well that's not a big deal". Well try dealing with it every day. I think it's extremely rude and disrespectful. I find it odd that they wouldn't even bother to adapt.
I can adapt with any culture. I respect all cultures as long as they can respect me too. I cannot respect a culture that comes here and forces me to learn their language and their culture, complains when they can't get what they want, and they don't even help support the system! And I do understand that not every Mexican is like that, but a majority of them around here are. You think that everybody who speaks out against illegal immigration is a racist.... that couldn't be further from the truth.
You assume that I don't like them because they are Mexican... no, I don't like them because of what they do. They could be Canadian and if they did the same things that all these illegal immigrants do, you bet I wouldn't want to stand for it.
I'm trying hard to think of a simple example for you to think (i'm not calling you dumb, but just imagine it this way).... You and a couple of your friends are in this normal sized house. Your neighbor asks to come in... you let him in. Then all of a sudden, your other neighbors realize your house is nice so they break the lock to your door and come in... one by one by one. Then they start using your TV, putting their feet up on your furniture... which isn't how you do things in your house. All of a sudden they keep coming in, breaking your windows and knocking down your doors. Next thing you know, it's impossible to get anywhere around the house now because there's so many people. Next thing you know, they're saying "why do you have windows and locks on your doors... do you not want us here"? And they try to justify ruining your house and breaking into your property. Then next thing you know, you complain to your friends and everybody else about how bad it is and they just label you a racist and say you don't care about people.
That may be a little too dramatic for what i'm trying to prove... but just think of it like that. You would have to live here to understand better. Once it reaches your state (and the way things are going, it will soon), then you might know about it a little better.

And that was to Tristan.

What about the illegals tha come here and don't take jobs that we Americans don't want but, manufacture and sell methamphetamines instead? I realize all kinds of people do this, not just illegals, but it still needs addressed. All of this I have experienced myself.


<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/kaoz78/personal_pic.jpg">

As I said above, I understand the language and culture issue. It is difficult when many refuse to adapt. I still think it would be good for Americans to make an effort to learn other languages too. I'm not just saying that because illegal aliens continue to cross the border, but simply because we should pride ourselves in education and worldly knowledge in language and culture.

Also, I live in south Florida, an area which has grown to be a haven for those of hispanic heritage. In the last 5 years there has been a HUGE increase in the population of Mexicans here. So I have had some of the same experiences you have had.

I'm also not calling everyone a racist, and I wish people wouldn't misinterpret me into thinking I am pro illegal immigration. Neither is the case. You may not be a racist, but the majority of people that I have spoken to on this subject (not online, simply in person) have continually expressed their distaste for Mexicans. There is a stigma associated with being Mexican and I see many legal immigrants (namely the two that I work with) that are looked at like pieces of trash by fellow employees. Keep in mind, if you were to go back to page one of this thread you will see numerous ignorant comments about accidentally blowing up places in Mexico and kicking all them Mexicans out of this country. Those are the people I mostly hear from which is where my feelings stem from. Now, there are exceptions in every case, but I still stick to my thoughts that if this were Canadians the scenario would be quite different. Also, I am not arguing that we should just let every Mexican into this country. Our government needs to get its $hit together and fix what's wrong. First of all, deporting close to 11 million people is ridiculous. They are here, whether you want them here or not. And no matter how long you want to refuse to listen to the facts of how much illegal immigrants PAY INTO THE SYSTEM, the illegal aliens that are here are vital to our economy. I, for once and only once, actually semi supported Bush's plan for a guest worker program. For once the dolt realized what so many cannot get their head around: illegal aliens help keep our economy afloat. Yes, we need to secure our borders and keep people crossing now. If did that, and allowed for a guest worker program we would be able to keep track of those that came across to work thereby keeping our borders secure while maintaining the ability to keep our economy stable by letting those guest workers do the jobs most Americans have no desire to do.

Finally, I mildly stated this in the previous paragraph, my previous post, and the one before that, but you need to open your eyes and look at the facts. In every one of your posts (this is obviously to you Mike) you have stated how illegal aliens don't pay into the system and your footing the bill for them. Please, please take a second of your time and do some research. This belief of yours is simply wrong. Again, refering to one of my last posts, between 2000 and 2002 they have paid over 150 billion to Social Security and billions in taxes. Some can get away with not paying taxes, but the OVERWHELMING majority cannot and are forced to buy fake driver's licenses and social security cards. And believe it or not, a decent amount of illegal aliens love America and what it stands for and are completely happy about paying taxes and social security, even when they will never get a penny of it. Simply because the U.S. gives them a chance at a better life and the ability to provide for their families.

So then your all fine with these people streaming in and freely breaking the law? So then I guess we should do away with the boarders all together huh? Whats next all laws? Sorry they are here ILLEGALY which means they do not belong here! I think the rallies however are an awesome idea! Get all the illegals together in one place get Janet Reno to instruct on how to "take them out" and catch them all, send them, and build a wall.

So for all of you who think they should be allowed to stay I would hope you never chastsize someone on here who complains about getting a ticket. No more how they broke the law so they got what they deserved crap out of any of you because you stand for no laws at all! So how dare you give them grief over getting stoped for speeding or street raceing or DWI when you think we should be able to break laws when ever we feel like it.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well Jackalope, it would appear that I am the only one arguing the other side so I guess you are refering to me. I am truly glad you bothered to read anything I said. If you had, you might have seen that I said I am not supporting people flooding into our country. We need to secure our borders and keep illegals out. I am, however, not supporting billions of our tax money going to deporting however million illegal immigrants there are and any of their children that were born here. Also, take a moment out of your day and imagine what you might do if you lived in Mexico and couldn't support your family. Think about what you would do if the process to become an American or work in America was so insanely difficult that by the time you were able to accomplish either your family would have starved to death. But I'm sure my words fall on deaf ears. We'll just round all them Mexicans up and kick em out. We'll spend billions on that, then we'll build a wall. Add some more billions. Then watch the farm industry crumble and our economy crash and our debt rise even higher. Then again, it wouldn't be that bad since the president you continually support has already set out to destroy us by spending billions and billions on senseless wars. What's a few more billion? At least we'd be rid of those illegal aliens.

So then me feeling sorry that they have 12 kids and live in a shack is reason for them to break the law? So then if I'm hungry and my dozen or so kids are hungry its ok for me to rob someone so I can feed them?

As for the farms crumbleing what do you think has been happening to the farming industry for years? The illegals came in and starting cutting the thoats of the workers already here ( money wise not literaly ) so why would the farmers hire American workers who actualy want to make decent money for their hard work when they have a long line of illegals wanting to do it for half the price? Kick them all out and give the homeless Americans the jobs so they may start getting thier life back. Lets help OUR
citizens before we worry about the whole worlds illegals.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Mexicans working here, is similiar to outsourcing. Those who believe in outsourcing days it's good because the product is made cheaper which makes it cheaper for the american buyer. It's the same as mexicans that work here. On one side it's good because these mexicans aren't unionized and don't need $35 an hour to work on a roof. Because of that, you can get a roof put on for fairly cheap by mexicans.

But lets look at both from another standpoint. If we keep outsourcing jobs and taking them away from americans, it doesn't really matter HOW CHEAP the product is. No1 will have a job and have money to buy it. It's a bit extreme to think about but it does make sense. Even the US Postal Service outsources to India. This could be the same with Mexicans working here illegally. Lets forget about how they pay into the system real quick and focus on them working. Let's say I'm a college student. My parents can't afford school so I have to pay my own way. A job in construction could REALLY help me out. Yea i might only be doing it for a few years until i graduate from college or something but someone in my shoes will come along again and fill my position.

Tristan: Your fathers company has a high turnover ratio, so do my parents restaurant. But, that's because we hire high school students to work in the kitchen. Sure their gone after 1-3 years, depending on if they go away to college or not. And yea, if my parents wanted to we could find some immigrants to hire and they'd work there for many years. But giving high school kids a job is important to society. You give a sophmore in high school a job. There's a good chance they'll be less likely to start doing drugs, and do better in school! Not to mention they have money in their pocket so they can became more independent. It might be a pain for my parents, constantly finding new workers, but in the grand scheme of things they want to help out our community and help the kids in our community grow.

Basically what i'm trying to say here is what jackalope said. Let us make sure that americans and the youth of america is on the right track before we start helping others. Too often are we the FIRST to jump into a situation and help a country out. We tend to overlook what going on here.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."