Well I have both a 4 banger and a V8 5.0L stang. I get the best of both worlds. I drive the 4 banger to and from work ( 105 miles a day) and I drive the stang on nice weekends.

Cant beat the sound of a V8!






"Remember do what you like because you have to drive it."--Me

^^^ so true i love my 67 289 hipo mustang

V8s are good for towing.

4 bangers are more economical and that's what I'm looking for.

well ill say from going from a 92 sunbird 4 banger to a 1005 olds aurora i like the v8 better cause it has good power without the mods and evewn more when you do mod it, but i sill love building up 4 bangers, i love the feeling of "hell this little 4 banger was slow but now its a Beast"

I wonder how much the 13 year difference in model years has to do with it?

PAX

1992 to 1995 is 13 years? holy sh-t

Well his post says 1005, I assumed they meant 2005, but then, is there such a thing as a 2005 Olds?

Didn't think through the type-o.. Gee sorry.

If you compare equal displacements there are some other examples of what you might expect but not the same configs. IE: 1000cc V-Twin Vs. 1000cc I4. There the I4 has proven to be a better race engine because of the smooth power delivery and top end power. The twins have the mid range grunt and generally can carry more speed through the corners, only to be eaten by the I4 on the straight. I'm sure that could be translated to I4 vs. V8.

PAX

^^^not entirely.

a V-twin--in the Harley sense is not like a V2--so to speak, it's more like a pie-section out of a radial engine.

In other words that argument would be like comparing the powerplants of a P51 Mustang (V-12 2218hp), and an engine from a B29 Superfortress (18-cyl radial engine, 2200hp). The V12 had to be geared down and did not have as good of low-end torque, while the Radial directly drove the propeller but could not spin as fast.




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I was thinking more along the lines of RC51 Vs CBR1000 Both Honda, both 1000cc in a race chassis. Harleys just don't compete in the arena I was looking at. The RC51 was the dominant superbike until the I4s took over, now Honda's answer is the CBR1000RR but they are not dominating. The I4 is dominating but its a zook that seems to be doing all the winning.

How about I4 vs. Boxster 4? BMW still puts horizontally opposed engines in most of their bikes.

PAX

Well, the H-4 is like a 180° V engine

I just meant on the config of it...i'm not sure if other v-twins are a 2-cylinder engine with dual pins on the crank shaft (essentially a V2), or, like a harley, a 2-cylinder engine with only one pin on the crankshaft (essentially, 2 cylindr radial engine).


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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What do you mean? Harleys have two piston rods.. It's the off-set that's funny with them.

I have not cracked the case of a harley though, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. I have cracked the case on a couple "other" twins though and they have two counter balances and two piston rods for sure.

My own I4 has nutless wrist pins to save weight (hits 15 000 rpm too)

PAX

Harley's do have two piston rods--the difference is in the crankshaft. in a standard I-2 or a V-2 (we'll keep with 2-cylinders for the sake of explaination), the crankshaft connections are staggered so that one piston hits top dead center while the other one is fully down. In other words, there are two discreet connection points to the crankshaft per cylinder.

In a Harley, which is arranged like a partial radial engine, both pistons conneted to the same part of the crankshaft. because of the offset, asuming a 45° V, one piston hits TDC, then 45° later, the other does, and neither gets back to TDC until the engine complets the remaining 315° of revolution.

In other words, an older harley V-twin is like an 8-cylinder radial engine with all but 2 cylinders removed (the newer revolution engine is like a 6-cylinder radial with all but 2 cylinders removed). It's how they get that pop-pop...pop-pop....pop-pop....sound. Each cylinder doesn't fire at a consistent rate.

This page should help explain:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/radial-engine3.htm




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personally i think 4cyl RWD turbo in a bigger car would be the best of both worlds.....

the last model v-8 camaros had what? 310hp? the new turbo eco has 265??? in a few more years if that eco gets a tad more power i think it would be a wayyyyy better alternative than a v-8 in a RWD performance car.



but as said, can't touch the sound of a v-8

Keeper I knew about the offset firing and wondered if that was what you were talking about. You know they patened that eh? In fact, they attempted (and may have been successful, I don't know) the sound itself. Personally I don't want an engine that always sounds like it's gonna stall

97Cavy22 That would be great provided the car it's too heavy. One thing V8s do way better than I4s is make low end torque, and that's what it takes to get the platform rolling. The only other option for an small displacement engine is a bigger, heavier flywheel but that takes away from throttle response sooo...

PAX

Nah, but i love the sound...i have to admit.

Personally, i like the concept of the radial engine, and would love to see what we could do with it nowadays with DOHC, shorter bores and higher revs.


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97cavy22 wrote:personally i think 4cyl RWD turbo in a bigger car would be the best of both worlds.....

the last model v-8 camaros had what? 310hp? the new turbo eco has 265??? in a few more years if that eco gets a tad more power i think it would be a wayyyyy better alternative than a v-8 in a RWD performance car.



but as said, can't touch the sound of a v-8

but...you cant forget about the thing that really moves the car.......torque.......Horsepower is for bragging....Torque puts you down the track.........

And to the bike guy talking trash.......I take you up on your slow bike.........and I'm street driven....

V8 for anything that wants to be fast.......

4 cylinder to get to work to make the cash




I'm that turbo V8 guy.....

Torque gets you out of the hole, but HP win races, plain and simple. Otherwise diesels would dominate the 1/4 mile. They don't, for a reason.. Horsepower.

You need to run low 10s to beat an out-of -the box 600cc sportbike (no mods) and you need to run low 9s to beat an out-of-the-box 1000cc Supersport. If you have a street driven 9 second car then more power to ya, but there's very, very few cars that can give the average supersport bike a run for its money.

Supersport bikes have also proven themselves faster than everything but supercars around a road course. They don't corner as well but the acceleration more than makes up for it.

You'll have your work cut out for you.

Next we'll discuss how a tiny kart with 250cc cycle engine smokes a C6 in both drag and autocross. The superkart guys have the video to prove it too.

PAX

Better than Lambo performance for less than the price of a mini-van. too cool.

I wish no one had ever made up the word horsepower. It was said that if torque mattered diesels would dominate drags.

Many people know that Top Fuel dragsters make around 8,000 horsepower, what not many people know that as the motor and rear end get to 1:1 just before half track (when the clutch finally locks up) these motors are putting down around 10,000 ft. lbs. of torque.

To counter my own argument Top Fuel dragsters are actually running like a Diesel at that point as the 16 spark plugs have melted away long before then.

As for the I4 to V8 argument I will always stand by the fact that the fastest car to ever run a quarter mile was nothing more than a 305" wheelbase rail car with a Supercharged Hemispherically headed 500 CID V-8 Aside from a Hydrogen Peroxide Rocket dragster that went 3.22 @ 412mph.

HP= Torque at 5252 RPM.

Horsepower is toque with a time element. Torque is the amount of force, were horsepower takes into account the amount of work done in a given timeframe.

Yes top fuel dragsters are "deiseling" for the last half of the track, but that doesn't make them a deisel engine. Running on deisel fuel and firing because of compression not spark would make them a deisel engine. Thanks Mr. Deisel.. Too bad you didn't get to see the success of your invention.

To put it more elequantly Horsepower = Torque * rpm / 5252

So if they are making 10 000 ft/lbs of torque and 8000 HP then

8000 = 10 000 * rpm / 5252

So they are reving at about 4200 ? I guess, but that seems low.

Remember torque is always higher than HP below 5252 rpm, and HP is always higher than torques above 5252 rpm. Always. They are always equal at 5252 rpm. If you see a dyno that disagrees, it's a fake.

Horsepower is a usefull term because it gives you an idea of how long it will take to do the work. Speed is also relative to time, and that' why HP wins races, not torque.

50 million ft/lbs does you no good if it's at 1 rpm. see?

PAX

PS: it wasn't about what developes the most power, it was about which is better. Myself, that means efficientcy. In that case the 4 banger wins simply becase if has less moving parts. Of course the efficientcy can be lost if you present a challenge that is too much for a 4 banger.. Like moving a firetruck down the road.

I agree. Torque pulls you out of the hole quicker.

I saw a video of a Z24 racing a WRX
The Z24 did awesome taking off, but later the WRX slowly passed the Z24 and the Z24 lost

Agreed, but all the thread says is ready...... fight, and I take that as which one hauls more @SS!! (Top Fuel Hauls the most of anything IMO)

When it comes to straight up performance for the money you could never beat a motorcycle, my bike pulls 50mpg and hauls the mail pretty well. (2003 Buell Firebolt XB9R)

P.S. I didn't mean it is a diesel engine I said its running like a diesel. Just trying to shed some light on what I consider the ultimate Drag Racers. But obviously they are the anti-efficient.

Hahahaha wrote:Torque gets you out of the hole, but HP win races, plain and simple. Otherwise diesels would dominate the 1/4 mile. They don't, for a reason.. Horsepower.

You need to run low 10s to beat an out-of -the box 600cc sportbike (no mods) and you need to run low 9s to beat an out-of-the-box 1000cc Supersport. If you have a street driven 9 second car then more power to ya, but there's very, very few cars that can give the average supersport bike a run for its money.

Supersport bikes have also proven themselves faster than everything but supercars around a road course. They don't corner as well but the acceleration more than makes up for it.

You'll have your work cut out for you.

Next we'll discuss how a tiny kart with 250cc cycle engine smokes a C6 in both drag and autocross. The superkart guys have the video to prove it too.

PAX

Better than Lambo performance for less than the price of a mini-van. too cool.

Torque=everything....comparing a diesel is retarded! for 1 they are built soley for low end power as well as geared for it


BTW my turbo is bigger than your head lol




I'm that turbo V8 guy.....

Torque is nothing without revs, and once you add revs to the equation you are talking about horsepower.

Take an engine that makes 100 ft/lbs of torque and red lines at 200 rpm, making at most 4 HP

Now take an engine that produces 100 ft/lbs or torque at 3000 rpm and redlines somewhere around 7000 rpm (typical 4 banger), that without knowing peak HP, we can assume it makes at least 57HP and very likely more in the higher RPMs. Are you going to tell me that they are equal because they both make 100ft/lbs?

Don't be silly.

Compairing to deisel is perfectly valid as we are talking about power output. Using extreme examples makes it easier to show the reason why HP wins races, not torque.

Of course you need torque to get things rolling, and in order to make any HP you need torque, but the car with the higher output (horsepower) per lb (weight) is gonna win (provided traction and driver are equal).

Power (horsepower) to weight ratio is almost everything, traction (suspention and tires) + Driver and drag (areodynamic drag) are what will tell the tale, not just a torque number.

Seriously.. Think it through a bit will ya?

PAX

Power: v8 if u want to fight the 'my friend did blahbitty blah to his blahbox 4 banger and it runs blah' then who cares cause no 4 banger runs 4.5s in the qrt whats the fastest balls out 4 banger? high 6s?


MPG.v8 wins, cause your 'high tech needs no more big dis. motors' is bull@!#$, cause we can make a v8 run high mpg too you son of a bitch!


so in the end 4 cyl suck cept for bikes lol


-Borsty

Did someone not feed Borsty his Ritalin this evening?




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