Because in the girl's case it's Freedom of Speech v.s. Separation of Church and State.
And further, before you try to goad me in defending the ACLU some more of this, let me remind you I already stated I'd support the girl on this. The Freedom of Speech is directly part of the Bill of Rights, whereas the SofC&S is something that was defined via court rulings over time.
---
No I'm not trying to start with you, you started with me.
Anyway as for that seperation thing you know it doesn't say that anywhere in the constitution right ? All it says is there shall be no state sponcered religion. A kid saying God in school doesn't quaify as a state sponcered religion.
Anyway glad to see we agree on this man. And come on I was just mesing with ya a little bit !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Right, that's what I just said, when I said " whereas the SofC&S is something that was defined via court rulings over time."
Quote:
A kid saying God in school doesn't quaify as a state sponcered religion.
That's right.
---
We agree !!!! Hey look its snowing in June ?!?!?
Kidding dude. Ya gotta admit though they do get a little crazy at times. The ACLU that is.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I don't always agree with what they're doing or their stance, but I don't see too many other organizations standing up to the government over wiretaps, privacy, etc.
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Again, it's undefined at this point. In the school's policies, does the valedictorian represent the school or is the valedictorian granted the honor of speaking as an individual.
While we can all speculate, unless we see the district's codes and procedures we can't call this.
If she's an agent of the school the school was within its rights
If she was an individual, her rights were violated.
That's what this boils down to.
And Jack, the difference is this: the cross-dresser is not acting as an agent of the school or the government--the possibility of the valedictorian acting as one changes the scope. If she's not an agent, she could say "God" to her heart's content--even praise him! Hell, if it's defined that the valedictorian is their own entity and a guest speaker at the school, then I'm waiting for them to praise God, YHVH, Allah, Odin, Zeus, Tyr, Hecate, Poseidon, Ba'al, Marduk, Pazuzu, Brahma, Kali, Krisha, Satan--et al. They are within their rights.
However, if the policy is that the Valedictorian is an agent of the school and representing the school, the she, as a school representative, we breaking the law.
As for my personal feelings, i could really care less. Unless she was saying something like everyone that doesn't belive in her God is going to hell or something equally rediculous, or asking the entire graduting class to pray with her and not allowing those that don't believe in her God to either dismiss the prayer or pray to whomever they believe in, then hey; she can have her moment in the sun.
In other words, like what happened at my high school, they can have a huge prayer on the school grounds sponsored by students as long as they leave everyone else an out and everyone else doesn't interfere, and those same students HAVE to give the rest of us the same wide berth in doing what we do.
In other words: Ban the crucifix and the pentacle has to be banned as well...
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
But because shes not in the employee of the school board would mean she is not an agent of the schools and the schools are thier own seperate entity from the state or local govt. so even if she were to be employeed shes still not endorsing any state sponcered religion so no ones rights have been trampled on except her freedom of speech.
Neet how that worked out in the girls favor huh?
Just because someone says "God" doesn't open them up as a target nor should it offend someone who does not believe in God at all. It would be like me taking offence if someone said they believed in Santa Clause or the tooth ferry, you claim God does not exist, ok fine. Why then does something that you dismiss as man made and silly get your panties in a bunch when someone wants to discuss it ? I don't go out of my way to push God on anyone yet these non-believer types sure do love to push on those who do believe what they want to never hear the name. Why is that ? Are you afraid of hearing it ? No I'm not starting with you Keeper I'm curious to know and since your the most open as to your non-belief in God I'd just like to understand from your standpoint why would it offend non-believers to hear someone speaking of God ? I'm seriously trying to understand the problem they may have so if you could explain it some to me I'd be greatful.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I don't think that allowing someone to speak about god amount to a state sponsored religion, people need to learn how to cope. I'm an atheist but it doesn't bother me that people talk about god, it does get old but thats my problem. My only question to the religious folk in here is, if she was preaching about satins greatness or evolution would you still feel the same? If you would then you are a rare breed and I commend you for your tolerance. If you wouldn't then you deserve every bit of censorship you receive.
bigj480 wrote:I don't think that allowing someone to speak about god amount to a state sponsored religion, people need to learn how to cope. I'm an atheist but it doesn't bother me that people talk about god, it does get old but thats my problem. My only question to the religious folk in here is, if she was preaching about satins greatness or evolution would you still feel the same? If you would then you are a rare breed and I commend you for your tolerance. If you wouldn't then you deserve every bit of censorship you receive.
Well if she was then I would not like her message - but I would support her right to say it. Of course in this case I bet the ACLU would have been defending her rights as well. She is NOT an agent of the school - she is a student. She was not employed by the school, contractually obligated to the school, nor did she swear any oath of loyalty and/or fellowship to the school. She has full right to thank God or whatever she wanted to do.
Lets face it, if she had wanted to go up there and praise Allah, there is no doubt that the ACLU would have definitely went to bat for her. And as Jackalope said, if she was a (homosexual) he - and wanted to go up in full drag telling how it is ok to come out of the closet(again I support the right to do that) - the ACLU would also have been there. But for someone who just wanted to tell how God is important to her(that is not preaching until she tells others that they should be Christian too), well the ACLU will not stand up for her rights.
Yes, overall I do respect the ACLU - they have/do many important things and overall their influence is positive for sure. But they are far from perfect, and especially far from impartial in regards to who's rights are important and who's are not. Basically you are not allowed to be oppressed unless you are a minority in some way - in their view. Also in some cases they can tend to back the oppressors. But in most cases they do the right thing. When they do wrong though - that is when it makes news therefore that is what you hear about.
P.S. She is not "the state" in any way - so seperation of church and state(which I do believe in) does not apply in the least here.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
Bastard/Jack:
Being employed or not doesn't necessarily make you or disqualify you from being an "agent"--so to speak.
Like was previously explained, If she is speaking on behalf of the school, that makes her an agent of it--or rather a representative of it (being an appointed one).
Like i said, this is where it gets murky--what is the policy on the speakers at graduation (and how the districts/chools see them as: a guest of the school, who is an independent entity and are accountable only to themselves, or are the a representative/agent of the school, and thus bound by the constraints put on the school).
This is where no one can agree because as yet, there is no answer.
My opinion, have the school districts state that all speakers are invited to speak and their opinions and beliefs are their own, and anyone that does not agree doesn't have to attend. And then enforece that despite the majority of opinions held (So if someone wants to praise God, they can. If they want o praise Satan, they can). The only way that shouldn't be enforced is if the speaker asks the graduates/crowd to take part in a sacrosanct ritual of hatever beluief system and doesn't allow an "opt out" (i.e. asking everyone to bow their head in prayer and won't begin until EVERYONE does...)
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
bigj480 wrote:I don't think that allowing someone to speak about god amount to a state sponsored religion, people need to learn how to cope. I'm an atheist but it doesn't bother me that people talk about god, it does get old but thats my problem. My only question to the religious folk in here is, if she was preaching about satins greatness or evolution would you still feel the same? If you would then you are a rare breed and I commend you for your tolerance. If you wouldn't then you deserve every bit of censorship you receive.
I'm not what you would consider religious by any strech of the imagination. I think if your gonna fight for free speech then you should fight for ALL free speech no matter if it offends you or not. After all isn't that what free speech is all about ? Being able to say what ever, when ever and not having to worry about the govt. getting involved. We've become so politicaly correct were now affraid to say something that may offend someone, this is a true shame. So go ahead and preach the word of Satin on high, or how you love this rock and its your God, as long as what you do makes you happy and a better person and your not hurting anyone then who am I to tell you your wrong ?
The ACLU either needs to fight equaly accross the board for free speech no matter what or they need to stop compleatly.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
[quote=Keeper of the Light™]
My opinion, have the school districts state that all speakers are invited to speak and their opinions and beliefs are their own, and anyone that does not agree doesn't have to attend. And then enforece that despite the majority of opinions held (So if someone wants to praise God, they can. If they want o praise Satan, they can). The only way that shouldn't be enforced is if the speaker asks the graduates/crowd to take part in a sacrosanct ritual of hatever beluief system and doesn't allow an "opt out" (i.e. asking everyone to bow their head in prayer and won't begin until EVERYONE does...)
When I was in high school they forced everyone into the gym to "cheer" on the football team when they were leaving to play for the state championship. It wasn't optional to be there, everyone had to be. I didn't want to be there, I didn't care about the team or states or if they won or lost. But I went, stood there uninterested, and I survived.
QUICK Zero, contact the ACLU and cry so you can sue them for infringing on your rights not to cheer !
You could win MILLIONS if you cry loudly enough !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
zero wrote:
When I was in high school they forced everyone into the gym to "cheer" on the football team when they were leaving to play for the state championship. It wasn't optional to be there, everyone had to be. I didn't want to be there, I didn't care about the team or states or if they won or lost. But I went, stood there uninterested, and I survived.
Ooooh WAAAA WAAAAA you had to do something you didn't want to in high school. Give me a break, everybody who went to high school had to do something they didn't want to do like go to a stupid assembly or listen the the @!#$ty school band try to play 'music'.
The school had every right to cut the mic on the girl since it's one of those situations where the School is Damned if they do or Damned if they don't. If they didn't they probably would've pissed off somebody from a different religion and gotten flack for that. When the ACLU was started it was a good 'Union' but now to me it just seems that they like to sue people or things that get alot of attention in the media.
strange, zero, almost every assembly we had they alowed us to opt out--where you had @!#$s like me making fun of the so-called popular kids for attending pep rallys and giving the cheerleaders a reason for being something other than an object for the team du jure to cop a feel on.
You'd think that they would have (gasp) been smart about it and said that if you don't want to press your nose firmly in the cleft of the shool team du jure then you can go to study hall and do what you're supposed to do at school....STUDY!!!!!!
(you can tell i didn't like high school
)
Still, again, my issue is not so much on the fact that she praised whatever invisible thing she believes in. My issue is that the role of her as a speaker needed to be defines as an entity of the school (she was in the wrong), or as her own entity (she was in the right).
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Buuut she doesn't work as a school employee so why would something she said be an endorsement for the schools ?
I could say that the next President will give everyone in the country a million dollers when he wins but do you think that would be honored as I have no ties to the govt. ? NO I'm free to say what I want but that doesn't hold someone else responcible for it. Thats just silly !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jack: It's about what is expected. If the school came out and said, "you're representing this school--keep that in mind with your speech" then she's got no leg to stand on. If the school says, "You deserve to make this speech your own since you made Valedictorian", then the school is wrong. You don't have to be an employee to be the mouthpiece for some entity. Hell, JBNW doesn't employ any of it's members, yet we don't let anyone talk about Streetracing on our forums. Why? In our Terms of Service, we clearly state that as a member you're a representative of our club, and our club's policy is that promotion of illegal activities is violation our club's rules, and you will be kicked out.
The school is the one who erred--not insofar as censoring her, but of not making it clear what entity she was representing, herself or the school as partof the arrangement for her to give her speech, follow? If i was valedictorian, and my school said, "you're representing the school and your graduationg class", I would not throw in any comments not representing of my peers, and if i didn't like that, i wouldn't give the speech. My choice. If they said that i earned the right to give a speech to my liking because i earned that right, and i wanted to tail my speech with "Hail Satan!" and was cendsored, then yes, i would be livid (cranted, unlike her, i'm not the "turn the other cheek" sort-of-guy--i would break out the napalm
).
Whether she was employed or not, on the school letting her speak at graduation, they needed to set terms of that agreement--whether she is considered a representative of the school, or a guest that does not reflect the ideas/beliefs of the school and/or graduating class. What you or I believe ion this is relatively moot--because we just speculate on what the policy should be, not what it IS.
And what I think it should be, hell, let her speak about it
. If someone got offended by that then the school should just explain that the speakers at graduation do not reflect the beleifs of the school or graduating class at large, and are protected by the first amendment.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Ok so because I'm an American and I say ALL CANADEINS WILL RECIEVE A CHECK FROM THE U.S. FOR 1 MILLION DOLLERS EACH then because I live here I'm considered an agent of the U.S. govt. ? That makes no sence at all !
But what you say make sence. I just don't get why the ACLU will defend anything else beside someones right to say GOD.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Man, How come the French Canadians get all the breaks?
PAX
Jack, I'm sorry but none of your analogies make any sense. You telling Canadians they will recieve a check for one million dollars does not make you an agent of the government. You are in no way representing them, thus there is no comparison that can be made to this situation. What keeper is saying is that it's possible that this girl is representing the school. If that is the case then the rules that the school must abide to therefore transfer to this girl's speech as well. If she is speaking for herself, then her rights were clearly violated. But it would appear in this situation that the school viewed the girl as representing them, thus there could be no religious material in the speech.
Jackalope wrote:Just because someone says "God" doesn't open them up as a target nor should it offend someone who does not believe in God at all. It would be like me taking offence if someone said they believed in Santa Clause or the tooth ferry, you claim God does not exist, ok fine. Why then does something that you dismiss as man made and silly get your panties in a bunch when someone wants to discuss it ? I don't go out of my way to push God on anyone yet these non-believer types sure do love to push on those who do believe what they want to never hear the name. Why is that ? Are you afraid of hearing it ? No I'm not starting with you Keeper I'm curious to know and since your the most open as to your non-belief in God I'd just like to understand from your standpoint why would it offend non-believers to hear someone speaking of God ? I'm seriously trying to understand the problem they may have so if you could explain it some to me I'd be greatful.
Now for this part. One, out of all the non believers I have met, myself included, I have only seen one ever try to push their beliefs on others or speak out about how god shouldn't be referenced and such. Believers, on the other hand, I constantly see announcing their beliefs and trying to convert people. But anyway, you see, those of us who are atheists, don't typically go announcing it to the world. The reason being that we have to deal with the bull of "how can you not believe?" "you're going to HELL!" and so on and so forth. It's not really a fun conversation explaining to someone that you're an atheist. I personally have a severe case of apathy. Religion annoys me, but I support everyone's right to practice whatever religion they choose. I would prefer not to hear about god and have him referenced in Congress and in the pledge and on our money. Do I care enough to b!tch about it? Nope, not at all. I am a minority in this country and I can live with that. As long as religion doesnt push itself into government anymore, then I'm fine.
Bastardking3000 wrote:I will agree that religion should not be in school(well with the obvious exception of not standing in the way of someone's beliefs - like if they want to pray at certain times, read their holy book in study hall, fast etc). However I don't think that Atheism should have any place in schools either. Atheism IS TAUGHT in schools. I mean objecting to language calling evolution a theory - IT IS A @!#$ING THEORY. Yes, it is only a scientific theory - by the very definition of a scientific theory. How does saying that that promote any particular religion/belief, or religion in general for that matter? It's not like any particular religion is proven anyways.
However refusing to admit that it is a theory rather than a fact - that does promote one particular belief structure - Atheism. I don't hear anyone bitching about the "theory of relativity." By all means I think evolution should be taught in schools - but only in the context of what it is - theory.
Two things here. One, atheism is in no way taught in schools. Two, I have never even heard of someone objecting to the the theory of evolution being called a theory. The only objection is to teaching creationism in school. That's not science. Evolution is still a theory, but it's based off of scientific evidence. Creationism is based off of the bible and what people believe. Until there is scientific evidence that suggests a creator it should not be taught in school. Now, they are quite a few sects of christianity that have accepted evolution and still believe in god. So how does teaching the theory of evolution support atheism? You don't have to be an atheist to believe in the theory of evolution. Again, I have yet to see someone object to calling evolution a theory. Hell, scientists still call it a theory.
Finally, in closing, I support the ACLU most of the time, even if I don't agree with who they are supporting. They follow the constitution and it's as simple as that. In this situation, if the girl is not representing the school and speaking solely on her on behalf, then I think it's stupid that she was censored. It is her right to believe whatever she wants and speak about it. However, if the school viewed this as her representing them and therefore falls under their limitations then the school was in the right and she should have been censored. It's as simple as that.
Hmmm... then I'm going to say that me puffing on a Marlboro is an expression of myself, say that all these non-smoking bans are against my freedom of speech, and sick the ACLU on every state in the union.
I think the ACLU needs to do some self-introspection and get their priorities straight. I also think the school system should as well.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Tristan, EXACTLY ! Just because I'm speaking from here does not make me an agent of the govt. Same as this girl speaking at her school does not make her an agent of that school. Glad someone was able to see what I ment !
And for everyone afraid of the word here ya go..... GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD
See no matter how mant times you see it, hear it, read it that little word never hurts you does it ? Now being I'm a
premium member of the J Body does my saying GOD mean that Dave and the site fully endorces God ? Or the fact that me saying GOD all those times means that JBO is a Cristian backed / Christian endorcing / Christian only web site ? I mean I am a member and I did say it on here in front of everyone, so I guess that must mean that JBO fully endorces and is backed by God and Christians alike right ? I mean your saying the girl uttering the word God on stage equals the schools endorcing of a certain religion, well I'm on a much bigger stage right now with all of you out there in internet land reading what I have to say so whats the difference ?
I'll go you one better..... As a premium member here at JBO I fully endorce God.
Now do you think that means a damn thing to Dave or to this site as a whole ?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
spikej wrote:zero wrote:
When I was in high school they forced everyone into the gym to "cheer" on the football team when they were leaving to play for the state championship. It wasn't optional to be there, everyone had to be. I didn't want to be there, I didn't care about the team or states or if they won or lost. But I went, stood there uninterested, and I survived.
Ooooh WAAAA WAAAAA you had to do something you didn't want to in high school. Give me a break, everybody who went to high school had to do something they didn't want to do like go to a stupid assembly or listen the the @!#$ty school band try to play 'music'.
The school had every right to cut the mic on the girl since it's one of those situations where the School is Damned if they do or Damned if they don't. If they didn't they probably would've pissed off somebody from a different religion and gotten flack for that. When the ACLU was started it was a good 'Union' but now to me it just seems that they like to sue people or things that get alot of attention in the media.
My point exactly. We've all done things that we didn't want to and we survived. We didn't need the ACLU, school principals or anyone else to protect us.
Tristan, Dude I've never tried to convert anyone to anything ! I believe in God but I also believe the NO religion is correct 100% so I choose not to follow any religion at all. Man made rules that a certain church tries to pawn off as the word/law of God and then the church can break the rules when they see fit?
If the Bible says make no graven images, then why do they have statues in churches?!?!? If the Bible says no false Gods then why do they pray to saints?!?!? Its a load of crap if you ask me.
Anyway I was just making clear I've NEVER pushed my beliefs on ANYONE, ever ! In fact I'll always listen to others to learn about what they believe in.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jack, tristan is right, you analogy makes no sense.
If you go on TV and announce that all of the canadiens are going to get a $1M cheque from the US Government, then it means nothing, true...
BUT
If the U.S. government asks you to go on tv and address the canadiens, and they leave it at that, are you acting on your own, or as an "agent" of the government? If you're acting on your own, then the $1M announcement means bupkis. If you're acting as their "agent", then the Government is out of MY hard-earned tax dollars 'cause of your unplugged piehole
.
Or, if you ask me to tell, say, hahaha something, am I acting on my own, or as an "agent" of you?
The school thought she was an agent of theirs, she didn't think she was. Her position with the school should have been addressed by the school better.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
