I'll state it again, The Valedictorian is expected to write an address that represents the graduating class. If the address doesn't represent the class, then the address should be altered. It represents the students, and if there is mention of a Christian God, and there is an aetheist, a Jew, a Muslim, a Satanist, a hindu or whatever... It's not representative of the class.

If it was at a Catholic High School, the argument would be null and void, public HS's though, Focus on the students, and keep your relationship with your God a personal matter.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Jackalope wrote:Tristan, EXACTLY ! Just because I'm speaking from here does not make me an agent of the govt. Same as this girl speaking at her school does not make her an agent of that school. Glad someone was able to see what I ment !

And for everyone afraid of the word here ya go..... GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD GOD
See no matter how mant times you see it, hear it, read it that little word never hurts you does it ? Now being I'm a
premium member of the J Body does my saying GOD mean that Dave and the site fully endorces God ? Or the fact that me saying GOD all those times means that JBO is a Cristian backed / Christian endorcing / Christian only web site ? I mean I am a member and I did say it on here in front of everyone, so I guess that must mean that JBO fully endorces and is backed by God and Christians alike right ? I mean your saying the girl uttering the word God on stage equals the schools endorcing of a certain religion, well I'm on a much bigger stage right now with all of you out there in internet land reading what I have to say so whats the difference ?

I'll go you one better..... As a premium member here at JBO I fully endorce God.

Now do you think that means a damn thing to Dave or to this site as a whole ?

No, Jackalope. I am NOT agreeing with you. You're missing the point. If the government asked you to tell all the Canadians that we are giving them a million dollars then you would be an agent of the government. If Dave asked you to be an agent of this site and tell the world that we support god here, then you would be representing it. The difference is the girl was asked to speak and in doing so she is representing the school (if that's the case, again it could be that she is free to say whatever she wants). You havent been asked by the government or by Dave to represent either. Therefore your word means nothing. If they asked then you would obligated to follow their rules as an agent of the forums or the government.

I believe you could be an agent to the circumstance on certain levels.
For example, we may or may not be agents of Christianity to the jbody.org on the level of member's conversing over issues like this, upto each individual. But we may be an Agent to Christianity on the org., whether we know it or not, like or not, believe it or not, from an outside idea like a muslim extremist looking in. He will kill you whether you believe in Christ or not, and your American or canadian in America or maybe even in Canada now as well, the idea on that level is that we would all be looked at as Christian on that level. Then again he doesn't care whether your part of the org. anyways, Like the org. is the allmighty J-powered site. Aside that... I'm just saying for example.
In the case of this girl these lines are very skewed. How much is she prosylitizing and how much is she being treated as an agent of the school? Both these issues cannot be put together to say that she is automatically trying to spread the word.
First off, she was asked, the school hoping that it would hear such a wonderful speach from the Valedictorian, is shocked that she isn't about all her acculades and intelligence. So the school wants what its not going to get, who's fault is that? Her's or the schools. Maybe she was coming from a level where she was acting as an agent to society as a bigger whole than the school and treating the school as just another facet to society. We don't know, but cutting her off and accusing her without defining her as a human being to uncircumstancial ambiguity is not defining the speech she was going to give in reference to what the school wanted to hear.
If it were me, and I were prosylitizing, I would get city permits and bullhorn, and give my speech about fifty yards back. What can the ACLU do then? tell you that you can't be there when the city designates to you a time, spot, and a have pre existing knowledge of what your going to be doing. The ACLU always seems to come off a bit one sided, and they are too sue happy.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

So then your basicly saying that the mere thought of someone having to withstand hearing the word God is disgraceful and they should be able to sue over it. In fact when at my daughters graduation they made us all reciet the plegde to the flag and we had to hear that horrid word God and ::::GASP::::: actualy say it too! Well thats it, I'm calling my lawyer ! That damn school infringed on my constitutional rights by forcing me to say and hear the word God ! Oh Sh-t !! That must mean that the school endorces God and there for Christianity too !! Oh double sh-t !! that must mean the state of Maryland wants only Catholics to live here and if we don't all conform we'll be shot or made to move to another state !!!! Oh this CAN NOT STAND !!!! How DARE they make me believe in God ! The nerve of some people !

Just cause some kid says God on stage at school does not mean the state endorces a certain religion !!! And Tristan, you missed my point. My saying it and being a member here and her saying it and being a member of her school in no way means the state endorces it ! The schools and the state govt. are 2 seperate agencies ! The schools budget is seperate from the state budget because its seperate from the state. And since the only thing the constitution says is that their shall be no state sponcered religion then no one elses rights but hers were violated because the state isn't forcing any religion on any body. Some kid saying God in a school speech does not equil the state telling you you must be Catholic !

And if you think her saying God does amount to the state forcing any certain religion on anyone I'd LOVE to hear how you've come to that conclusion.






Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well, at mine, Jack, i (gasp) DIDN'T SAY GOD!!! and ya know what, no one gave a toss about it.

I'm not arguing her saying God, to me, if that was the issue i would have expected those that weren't gung-ho christian to either brush her speech off, or at the worst, heckle her (after all, turnabout is always fair play).

My argument is on whether or not she was expected to represent the school or graduating class, or a guest representing herself. It was not clearly defined.

GAM: As you stated, the Valedictorian is supposed to represent the graduating class--according to you. Here's the issue: Where, along the lines of the procedures for graduation for her school district does it say that?

I'm not talking about impicitities, i'm thinking legally, there has to be some document on the procedures of this within the school district (otherwise they would leave them selves a legal loophole big enough to drive a mack truck with Oprah Winfrey on the flatbed through it). that states what everyone at the graduation is supposed to do and what their role is. If that document states that she, as the valedictorian, is indeed a representative of that class, then she was in the wrong. Cut, Dried, Simple.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Ok well at least now I get what your saying Keeper. But to me in all honesty I can not see how she could be considered to be speaking on behalf of the school and subsiquently the state.

We'll just have to agree to dis-agree cuase this is turning into a pissing match and i just came back from the bathroom so I'm fresh out.

Peace out!





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jack. If Dave came to you and asked you to give a speech at a ceremony on behalf of the org you would be required to follow the rules he set forth for the speech, wouldn't you? He is asking you to represent the org and therefore all its rules apply to your speech. You would then be an agent of the org. You simply speaking as a member of the org does not mean you are speaking for it or representing it. That's how it could apply to this situation. If the school asked the girl to represent them by giving her speech she has to abide by the rules the school has to abide by. If she isn't representing them then clearly her rights were violated.

Well Tristan its funny you should mention that ! Ha ! Dave did actualy come to me and ask me to wright the memorial for Saint. It took me more then 3 weeks to gather bits and pieces of different speeches and articals and package it all together nicly for Mr. Dave so alllllll he would have to do was post it. Its been over a month now since I sent the THIRD set of stuff off to Mr. Dave and as of yet he hasn't done sh-t to put it up. Nope ! Nothing at all ! So Tristan if Dave came to me tomorrow and asked me to do anything for him ever again I wouldn't waste my time ! I spent weeks getting the stuff together for Saint, sh-t that would bring a tear to your eye, sent 3 copies to Dave the wonderful and........................................ silence. Not a thank you, good job, kiss my ass, nothing! I've PMed him, E-mailed him, E-mailed the org, even went so far as to start another post about in General and that got locked and I was told its on its way...........So is the end of the world!







Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:40 PM

Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Simple, Jack. In your dedication to Saint (moment of silence), Dave asked you to do it...are you giving this dedication in your own words, or are you expected to give the memorial on behalf of all of JBO?

As the Valedictorian, if she is asked to give a speech, and we confirm that she is asked to represent the entire class, and she makes a speech about God, praising God and loving God, well, that speech is erroneus, because i will bet you dollars to donuts that there is at least one person in that graduating class that does not believe, love, or have faith in God. Thus, they are being misrepresented...

Kinda like how the catholics are pissed when anyone not catholic assumes that the catholic's idea of "child rearing" involves anal intercourse. I can see how the people who aren't christian would be upset if the person designated to to represent them misrepresents them in such a way. That's the basis of Why. And I can see the schools stance.

What I can't see is why it isn't spelled out by the school and not assumed implicitly that the valedictorian is representing the school and the graduating class. SOMEWHERE this has to be documented, and it should be made clear to the speech-makers at said graduation that they are (or aren't) an agent of the school, and thus take into to consideration who they (or who they aren't) representing.

Either way--the school is at fault for not making clear how the Valedictorian stands. If she's like you say, her own person and speaking what she wants to speak, then it should have been made clear that NO ONE can hold the school liable for the content of her speech. If she's like GA says, a representative of her class and the school, then the school should have let her know that she could not do this legally because it is gross misrepresentation and can cause them to be deluged with law suits.




Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Jackalope, you hit it on the spot. The ACLU can and does sue over the right to proclaim God a lot. They will look for and construe any area of God and turn it against our own freedom's. That's what the ACLU does. Their bad for business. They are in it for themselves. Who in their right mind would protect NAMBLA, that north american man boy love association. The only place that the ACLU should be allowed to work in, is in places like the GAZA Strip, the westbank, or Iraq.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

Keeper: I'm not sure... I think it also comes down to staying on topic, and being at least aware and cognizant of the fact that not every one believes in the Christian God. What bearing does a personal belief in religion have to do with graduating from a secular school and your outlook on the future? I think it's off topic, and the girl in question seems to have strayed at some point. If it was a Catholic school or a Yeshiva, or whatever: this discussion wouldn't be happening.

jbody4jc: Proclaiming your God over someone else's is pretty petulant, and frankly it's what got the mid-east in the quagmire it's in now.

As for the ACLU being bad for business, Who's business are you talking about: The Schools, or the Church? I'd think that if the worst of the worst had their rights trampled on, it's only a matter of time before yours are trampled on as well, when one person is denegrated, everyone loses. They're not in it for themselves (IIRC they're not-for-profit, but please correct me if I'm wrong), they're in it for YOU, to make sure you're not the odd man out. ACLU is part of the mechanism that prevents you from losing your rights because someone in power thinks you should.

Jack: SAINT's Memorial is a different subject altogether. A commencement speech is dedicated to looking back and looking ahead, but SAINT's memorial is about remembering a friend.

I wouldn't have used that as an example, personally. It's poor form.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM: The way I see it, it boils down to this.

The majority of the arguments, including yours, is that the valedictoruian is supposed to make a speech indicative of the graduationg class, and hence, she was in the wrong.

No issues on this .

The other argument is that be acheiving valedictorian, she has the honor of making a speech of her own design at graduation. In that case, she wasn't really in any wrong because she's not representing the class or the school; she's representing herself.

The school, and to a greater extent the district and school board has to have some documentation or bylaw documented somewhere that explicitly states which of the above conditions is true. That documentation should have been more clearly stated by the school.

That's my $.02


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Gam, I'm not here to debate on more than one God. If you want to blaspheme the one and only, that's your funeral. BUt don't call him my god, because in my book, He's your God too. Like it or not, that's life, no issue.
Our ancestor's didn't come to this country to be free from God, but to be free for God. The ACLU hasn't done anything to serve the Christian persective, or the rights of God, so from my take, The ACLU does not serve my rights or my people, why would I give them my support. I believe they help the world at the cost of GOd. What good have they done then? <><



Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

In your book, JB4JC, not his. You can't prove your book is his book without living his life.

In my book, there is no God(s), but I know my book is not your book, but you don't see me thinking you're wrong for believing in a God.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]In your book, JB4JC, not his. You can't prove your book is his book without living his life.

In my book, there is no God(s), but I know my book is not your book, but you don't see me thinking you're wrong for believing in a God.

Impressive... Tolerance when confronted by someone who clearly stated that your faith is invalid. I am impressed.

JB4JC, because the ACLU doesn't support your beliefs doesn't mean they don't do good things for others. Because they don't conform to your religious views you condemn them. That's incredibly ironic, you are exercising your rights of free speech and freedom of religion to speak negatively about an org that fights for both rights.

The school didn't say the valedictorian had to worshop a certain faith or follow certain religious practices. They censored the words that were coming through a microphone the school paid for, in a venue the school paid for, at an event that represented the school system. If a lawsuit was filed because someone was offended by the speaker, it would be filed against the school. They had the right to censor what is said at their event.

If I was asked to read from the bible at a baptism and decided to tell jokes instead, the church would be well within their rights to tell me to "sit down and shut up". If you can understand that, you can understand why the school edited the content of the speach.


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

So tell me one case that the ACLU has helped the position of a Christian individual, organization, etc. Until then I'll sit until stood corrected.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

Taken from this page:

http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html'

September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.

August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln.

July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.

May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.

February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.

October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church.

July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.

April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating.

January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church's right to run "anti-Santa" ads in Boston subways.

Sounds like they have done plenty both defending christiany when it needs to be defendedm, and striking it down when it tries to lord over those that aren't christian.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

^^ It seems that the ACLU fights for your freedom to be as religious as you want to be, JB4JC, even if you don't see it that way.

btw, I do respect your commitment to your faith. Where I get my fruit of the looms in a bunch is when you say things like "BUt don't call him my god, because in my book, He's your God too. Like it or not". Statements like that are invalidating my beliefs.


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

jbody4jc has to learn to not only love his neighbour but respect them as well.

The ultimate result of all this is that no-one really knows with any degree of rapt certainty what lays beyond this life, and as far as I know, no one has come back to complain yet.

Lots of different views, infinite diversity in infinite combinations. I like to think there's a place for everyone, and maybe we can get along... I'd just rather do it in the here and now than wait for something that might not come.

Also, Given that Keeper has given a list of all the Pro-Christianity stances the ACLU and state/local chapters have taken... would you care to rephrase or retract your comment:

jbody4jc wrote:The ACLU hasn't done anything to serve the Christian persective, or the rights of God, so from my take, The ACLU does not serve my rights or my people, why would I give them my support. I believe they help the world at the cost of GOd. What good have they done then?

I only ask because, yet again, you are not as well informed as you need to be when taking such a stand, and on top of that, the information is a 2 second google search away.

Seriously, I respect your ideas on religion, but seriously, you NEED to inform yourself a lot more about it, and the world you inhabit. All is not religion, the state or the people: it's a combination, and like it or not, all 3 have to either play nice, or ultimately lose to each other. The reason you live in a FREE society is because the founders of that society understood that there is no point to having one religion over all others, its one of the reasons that there is no official state religion in the USA, there is Christian underpinnings, certainly, but, there is nothing, strictly speaking stating that Christianity or any sub sect is the official religion.

The ACLU is not interested in oppressing anyone, quite the opposite. The instance in question is where a Christian overstepped their bounds (it happens once in a while, we're only human). If it were a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Satanist, a Poly-theist or an Aetheist (etc. ad nauseum), the same thing would have happened. Christians are not Martyrs in this day and age in the USA, Christians have to understand, accept and embrace the idea that there are MANY religions, MANY cultures and DIFFERENT points of view, and respect that those people have the right to their beliefs. You may believe in one God, and someone else may not... who's right? Who CARES? Your belief in religion and God (which CAN in fact be mutually exclusive) are YOUR beliefs, it's irresponsible and rude to impart your beliefs on someone else... How would you like it if a Muslim told you that all your beliefs in Christianity were wrong and failed? A Hindu? A Buddhist? You would scoff at it, and you have in the past (hell, on THIS PAGE!), and I'm pretty sure you'd keep on doing it, it's the same when you do it.

My advice: Drop the wronged Christian soul, and quavering voice of indignation rhetoric. It's getting really damned old, and it's not winning you any favours. What would Jesus do if he found out you were an asshole?



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Gam, what you have to start doing is listening to your neighbor and accept that he does love you beyond things you say, and please stop playing the holier than thou trump card on knowledge of who you think Christians should be. Its a self serving purpose, just stop, you can't speak for something your not. I don't live by sticking to favors, I live. Jesus would look at me and say your actions spoke louder than Gam's words, and thats where I'd want to be, in his favor, not yours. His word is written on my heart, your words are written on this page.


ps Gam, I love you unconditionally. Yes believe it. <><


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

I'm not talking about Christians, I'm talking about YOU. I tolerate everyone that does no harm to themselves or another, and what they do on their own time is their business... I do not tolerate those that push their religion, Drugs or ideas onto others in anyone else's name. You're not ministering to a flock, and pushing your religion by saying there's one God, it's everyone's God is not only distasteful, it's frankly provocative. I don't, and never have, spoken for someone other than myself, that's the difference between me and you. I don't speak for someone else, and I don't claim to have read a book and know everything about a person, thing or concept. As far as what happens if there is a judgment day, I have no regrets, and I stand by what I've done good and bad, and I don't look to anyone to absolve me of the wrongs I've done, I atone for myself, those are my actions that speak louder than words.

And, you're still not answering the fact that your original ACLU=BAD rhetoric was uninformed.

You can say that Keeper was right, you are wrong, accept it (or even embrace it), quit dodging the subject and move on to your next annoyance.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Forgive me Gam? We shall never speak again.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

See, now that's the problem with you. It's all or nothing.

You could say "gee, sorry GAM, I didn't mean it that way, I was just espoucing my beliefs" but instead.. "We shall never speak again"..

Ask yourself, what would Jesus do? He taught tolerance, understanding and faith beyond all faith. He instructed his apostles to go amongst the non-believers and live, eat what they eat, enter their homes when invited and not to ridicule only inform. Show some brotherly love, you know, accept so that you too may be accepted.

It seems to me that you have contempt for those who do not see things your way. In my faith, that is not what Jesus would instruct.

Oh ya.. The ACLU.. umm, they did what they had to, the Valivictorian WAS representing the school and therefore was limited in the free speach by the school policy and likely state legislature. The ACLU appears to happy to defend anyone who's rights are being trod upon, christian or not. Good for them.

PAX

I accepted him, I told him so, I knew his heart. He did not take it graciously, but put what I believe down pridefully. Jesus knew thier hearts... speaking of the pharisees. Jesus did not accept them...they did not accept Him. Jesus said things many did not want to hear, but it had to be that way. He showed loved until he truly found their hearts. Jesus didn't just walk up into the temple and begin levingly assciate with the actions they were committing, you know the rest. True peace comes with the sword.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com

The Pharisees were ridiculed by Jesua because they knew the truth but did not follow. It's like a priest that abuses children, and they deserve to be ridiculed. That is not the way to treat Joe public. Joe public does not know better and could use some truth to be brought to them, not rammed down their throats.

If you go around treating everyone as if they are like the Pharisees then you have some serious problems. Try to remember what Jesua said about the Gentiles, not what he did regarding the Pharisees, they were like a dog in the manger. They will not eat, and they will not allow anyone else to eat either. See the difference?

Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares

PAX