I never thought of you as a prick until now...

Those are ex-smokers.. They are even worse than non-smokers. Anyone who goes into a smoking section and asks people to put them out is an idiot. Anyone who does that at a bar where people may be drunk, is looking for a beat down.

PAX

I dont know why everyone hates smokers.

Hell I smoke becuase if I didnt working someimtes 12 hour days 7 days a week during tax season I would probably stab somone multiple times.

Though I FULLY 100% AGREE

No smoking in public buildings
No smoking within 20 feet of windows or doors
No smoking in a car with somone under 18

I think these rules are more than fair and reasonable.

Hahahaha wrote:I never thought of you as a prick until now...

Damn.. my cover's been blown.... Stupid brain!




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

As I was reading through these post, this line stuck out the most.

degenerated wrote:I think what most people forget about their rights is that they can't infringe on the rights of another.

I've had this debate in the past with other people. I completely agree that people have the right to smoke in there own house, car, or anyplace like that. I also agree that most public places should be outlawed. (restaurants, bus stops, yada yada yada).

When the topic of smoking in bars came up, I was for allowing them to smoke, but as I thought more about it, why? Yes a large percent of heavy drinkers are smokers, but how does that make it different from a trucker stop, or a Dennie's or someplace like that? I always enjoy a good beer, probably more so than most people, but why should I have to suffer the negative externalities of smokers? I know my girlfriend has turned down going out to certain places for after work drinks or something like that because she was meeting her parents afterwards and didn't want to smell like smoke.
The bar we go to is a little hole in the wall type thing. Every time we leave there, my clothes wreak, I can smell it in my gf's hair even after a shower or two. Why do smokers think they have the right to cause these harms to other people? Don't I have every bit of right to go out and get a drink as the next person? Can any smoker agrue that they have the right to fowl up other people's cloths?

Yes, it is an acepted norm that if you go to a bar, you will end up smelling like smoke, but does that make it right?


and on a side note, i don't think one person admited to being a rude smoker. Aperently everyone is concerderate of everyone else... but let me ask you this, how many of you concider yourself a good, concerderate driver, but how many nutt jobs are there out on the road?





Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

But, as a bar owner, if i want to open my estabishment up as a haven for smokers, i should have that right. As long as I clearly label the place as a smoking estabishment, then what do the non-smokers have to complain about? they KNOW it's a smoking estabishment!


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

How come people only use the defense for bars, why would it be different for the local diner, truck stop, or even fast food restaurant?

The fact is that a bar is a public place. I should be able to enter any public place and not worry about negative externalities as bad as smoke. Can you name any public place where unneeded negative externalities are forced on you?

Now if your haven for smokers is a privet establishment, that's a different story.


As I said before, a large percent of heavy drinkers are smokers, and no bar owners would willingly do that to such a large part of there demographic, (unless they market themselves as smoke free, which would only work in populated areas) leaving us non-smokers to deal with it. If smoking was up to the bar owner's choice, if i wanted to go and get a drink here in the middle of Ohio without smelling smoke, do you think i could?

I might be willing to accept the "safe haven for smokers" argument a bit more if that was the business intent. Not just to try to get as many people as possible.

How would you feel about a tobacco licenses? Make the establishment decided if it is worth the licenses fee to keep the smokers. Try to balance it out so there are places to go for people like me to get a drink.





Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie

Niceguy4186 wrote:As I was reading through these post, this line stuck out the most.

degenerated wrote:I think what most people forget about their rights is that they can't infringe on the rights of another.

Aperently everyone is concerderate of everyone else... but let me ask you this, how many of you concider yourself a good, concerderate driver, but how many nutt jobs are there out on the road?

I don't drink. Using the logic that the rights of the individual end where they infringe on another person's rights, drinking should be illegal except in your own home, where minors can't see you, or in a place where you can stay until you sober up.

Your drinking in a bar infringes on my right to drive without having to dodge alcohol-impaired drivers on the public road. Getting hit by a drunk is considerably worse than having your clothes smell like smoke. And, different from choosing to go into a bar that allows smoking, there are no streets marked "drivers have been drinking, enter at your own risk.".

And as KOTL said, if a bar owner wants to allow smoking, that should be their choice. What's next, legislating that bars must have 4 pool tables so you don't have to wait to play a game? What if a bar owner doesn't want to serve Budweiser or have a TV? Should there be laws on that too?

.





John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Niceguy4186 wrote:How come people only use the defense for bars, why would it be different for the local diner, truck stop, or even fast food restaurant?

Because drinking and smoking go together. I know people who don't smoke unless they're drinking.

Niceguy4186 wrote:The fact is that a bar is a public place. I should be able to enter any public place and not worry about negative externalities as bad as smoke.

City Hall is a public place. Bars are privately owned. Huge difference there.

Niceguy4186 wrote:Can you name any public place where unneeded negative externalities are forced on you?

I can name several...
* Drag Races. The noise level is too loud. They should have to use nice, quiet mufflers.

* Ski Slopes. The cold wind can give you frostbite. They need to move ski slopes to warmer climates.

* All-you-can-eat buffets. Should I really have to see that spandex enormity stuffing her tenth plate of food down her throat? I want fat people to sit in their own section!

* The beach. Sand crab bites hurt, I should have the right to swim without getting bitten. And that goes for jellyfish, too!

Niceguy4186 wrote:Now if your haven for smokers is a privet establishment, that's a different story.

See above about city hall being public.

Niceguy4186 wrote:As I said before, a large percent of heavy drinkers are smokers, and no bar owners would willingly do that to such a large part of there demographic, (unless they market themselves as smoke free, which would only work in populated areas) leaving us non-smokers to deal with it. If smoking was up to the bar owner's choice, if i wanted to go and get a drink here in the middle of Ohio without smelling smoke, do you think i could?

Then it's up to you to open a non-smoking bar. Isn't it great that we live in a country that allows business owners to have some control over what their business practices are?

Niceguy4186 wrote:I might be willing to accept the "safe haven for smokers" argument a bit more if that was the business intent. Not just to try to get as many people as possible.

So if I wanted to open a bar and name it
John's dirty ashtray
we also have beer

would that be OK with you?

Niceguy4186 wrote:How would you feel about a tobacco licenses? Make the establishment decided if it is worth the licenses fee to keep the smokers. Try to balance it out so there are places to go for people like me to get a drink.

This wouldn't change anything, as bar owners would recognize the need to keep smoking permitted to keep their customers from finding another place to go. The only change would be higher prices passed on to you to offset the additional tax.




John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

Bars are not told to go non-smoking to protect the patrons you guys.. It's to protect the staff who are in there 40 hours a week. Nobody gives a crap about drunks.

PAX

Niceguy4186 wrote:As I was reading through these post, this line stuck out the most.

degenerated wrote:I think what most people forget about their rights is that they can't infringe on the rights of another.

I've had this debate in the past with other people. I completely agree that people have the right to smoke in there own house, car, or anyplace like that. I also agree that most public places should be outlawed. (restaurants, bus stops, yada yada yada).

When the topic of smoking in bars came up, I was for allowing them to smoke, but as I thought more about it, why? Yes a large percent of heavy drinkers are smokers, but how does that make it different from a trucker stop, or a Dennie's or someplace like that? I always enjoy a good beer, probably more so than most people, but why should I have to suffer the negative externalities of smokers? I know my girlfriend has turned down going out to certain places for after work drinks or something like that because she was meeting her parents afterwards and didn't want to smell like smoke.
The bar we go to is a little hole in the wall type thing. Every time we leave there, my clothes wreak, I can smell it in my gf's hair even after a shower or two. Why do smokers think they have the right to cause these harms to other people? Don't I have every bit of right to go out and get a drink as the next person? Can any smoker agrue that they have the right to fowl up other people's cloths?

Yes, it is an acepted norm that if you go to a bar, you will end up smelling like smoke, but does that make it right?


and on a side note, i don't think one person admited to being a rude smoker. Aperently everyone is concerderate of everyone else... but let me ask you this, how many of you concider yourself a good, concerderate driver, but how many nutt jobs are there out on the road?

but again, I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that all of these people that want to completely ban smoking in public places is infringing on my right to smoke. the arguement goes both ways, and a lot of people don't see that.

if you want to talk about clothes, hair, etc. stinking after going to the bar, what about all the patrons that wear WAY too much perfume, cologne, etc. I've had some pretty severe allergy attacks due to this, and not just in bars. too much mucus down my throat, I start having bronchial spasms and I have had to go to the emergency room due to those spasms.

it's a double standard here. the general population need to see that while walking into a smoke-filled bar isn't fair to them, taking my cigarettes away from me isn't right either.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

HAHAHA/Niceguy:

The issue with that is less about YOUR right to frequent an establishment owned by the private sector. Since it's privately owned the owner should have the ultimate say in what goes on there. Since just about any place like that from a McDonalds to a McCormicks' reserves the right to refuse service.

The point i'm trying to get at is simply this: If i owned a bar that I wanted smokers to frequent, i would post that it is indeed a smoking estabishment in big bold letters on the front of the place. Anyone that wants to interview for work would be asked "Do you mind working in an environment where you will be exposed to large amounts of cigartte smoke?" and the employment contract would indemnify us from any financial or legal obligation sould an employee sue me for health problems, since it says right on the contract that they WILL be exposed to cigarette smoke, and as such, if they can't deal with it we will hire someone who can.

And in the same token, if i want to open a bar next door that is completely smoke free, and have a copetant staff fo bouncers the size of Event on standby so in case anyone starts smoking they assume the poor bastard is on fire, smother them with a wet blanket and beat them senseless and then remove them from the premises, I have that right.

As a non smoker, if i go to a bar, pub, microbrewery, or any establishment that has a smoking area, I expect there to be smoke and if i have a problem with that...i'll go to a non-smoking one.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

you know what, I'm also tired of other people using all the oxygen up when I'm in buildings and polluting my air with their oxygen depleted and infectious exhalations.

the difference in using the bar defense versus say a Denny's is that people can't drag their kids into a bar as readily as a Denny's, children have no choice.

however those over 21 that choose to destroy their bodies with alchohol need to stf up about the smoke or drink somewhere else, if a bar is non-smoking by the owners choice then they need to stfu and go somewhere else that allows them to smoke by the owners choice.

Im sorry but after i got done reading all of this i had to light one up. Damn what is this world comming too? You all have great advice honestly i would so love to quite smoking because it is nasty and can lead to death, but im hooked I started smoking last part of the year in HS... English 4 is a bitch and i couldnt stay focused and calm need to get my mind off stuff so i decided to try it out and soon enough the bad man got me.... Plus not only is it all of the above its expensive just image if it takes you 2 days to smoke one pack of ciggs thats 20 in each pack ok? Here in FL where I live its 4 dollers a pack and times that by the days of the year thats close to 800 dollers a year!!!!!!!! When i look at it that way that could be money put to good use on the Sunfire...... then agian to each their own.


5 seconds to find another street...

Keep, prior to the law being passed in WA, it was included in job apps for smoking establishments (and I believe is still in there for the Tulalip casino-- pronounced too-lay'-lip for the out-of-towners) that part of the job description states "May be exposed to a smoke-filled environment..." That there is enough to indemnify as the applicant is aware before hand, rather than wasting their time (and the employers) by asking it in the interview.

Maybe, but you know how stupid people are. If it was also brought up in an interview, more legal power to the owners.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Does anyone wanna take a stab at why NYS Banned smoking in public places years ago?



This is prolly one of my favorite cartoons..The irony just kills me.






Let me ask this. Out of all you hard core,ban smoking everywhere, make tobaccos illegal, idiots, who supports Abortion?


KOTL, you never cease to amaze me. You vast knowlege and open mind are amazing and i wish other people including myself could take after you. Your on of the first non smokers i have heard that actually took the time to make a vaild point. Thank you

<TAKES A BOW>

Thank you. May the forces of evil get lost on the way to your home, Rosario.

And both cartoons make sense.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Ok all being said about non-smoking bars and what not, obviously its not the smokers' fault but around here you can get a pitcher of beer for 3-5$ at a normal bar and at a non-smoking bar it is usually 9-10$ thats f-cking bullsh-t.

yenkosuprcar wrote:Ok all being said about non-smoking bars and what not, obviously its not the smokers' fault but around here you can get a pitcher of beer for 3-5$ at a normal bar and at a non-smoking bar it is usually 9-10$ thats f-cking bullsh-t.

High volume= lower prices. The bar owner has bills to pay too, and even if they're busy on the weekends I'm sure during the week there's no problem getting a seat.


.


John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto

it's the god damn chinese! the commies want you to smoke so they can all run in on their little legs while America is out of breath and kung fu kick us all in the sack.

punch a chinaman next time you see him!

(read about MSG....the shiz will kill you.)

Obviously people should be able to smoke as long as they keep the smoke away from people who don't want to inhale the secondhand smoke. This is completely fair, how it is done is not a concern. Why not use smoking sections or rooms? Didn't they sat that ACs spread the chemicals to the non-smoking sections? I think that by the time it goes through the AC it's not concentrated enough to worry about, but who am I to judge. People have a right not to be exposed to carcinogens if the don't want to be. How can you argue with that? Also the government shouldn't pay for smokers health problems if they are related to smoking or drug use. ultimately, it's not my job to make it easier for you to smoke by inhaling toxins.

Okay, again, you can't infringe on anybody elses rights when you choose to exercise one of your own.

For example: I can't kill you because I don't like you. My distaste for you, and excercising my right to own and shoot a gun are superceeded by the fact that you have the right to life. (And unfortunately so in some circumstances )

You should not be able to smoke in public places, or estabilshments open to the public, because your choice to smoke infringes on my right to not smoke. Because smoking has so many health concerns associated with it, and me not smoking has NONE, it is up to you to put out.

And it's not just logic, it's the law. When it comes down to it, when you are around those who do not want to smoke or breath it in, you do not have the right to smoke. There's no both ways to the argument. I'll say it again--because your action can cause me to have health problems, but my choice causes you no health concern, you are effectively infringing on my right to be safe from harm.

I agree that business owners should be able to choose if they want their establishments to allow smoking, and I agree that you should be allowed to smoke, because that's your choice. That's not my point.

My point is that you DO NOT have the right to smoke near me if we are both in a public area where we are on equal footing. That's all I'm saying, for the sake of this debate. However, if there are specifically designated smoking areas, and I make the choice to go in there, I get what I deserve. It's a touchy issue, but most people don't seem to grasp the idea of rights. If we applied the same logic that smokers use to describe their rights, then we should technically be allowed to kill people. Or at least in areas designated as "killing zones."

I don't even care in real life. I'm an ex-smoker, my parents smoke, and I'll go into a bar even if people are smoking. It's not a big deal to me.

And if you don't get it, you never will.

Quote:

And if you don't get it, you never will.

I agree with everything you just said, to the letter, except that last point. As a teacher, I would think you wouldn't believe in that last comment. But, that is besides the point.

I don't think it could be put any simpler or to the point. I would like to see someone rebut that.




Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
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1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.