I don't believe that Israel would ever even be in jeopardy if they built their nation in a legit way. Most extremists would not exist if it was not for Israel's forceful settlement a few decades ago. This will NEVER end.
Quote:
Israel has to use force to continue to exist.
Like I have said, it was built by force therefore it will need to use force in order to exist... This is a wrong thing to do and it decreases everyone's quality of life in that region. Muslims and Jews alike.
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There will never be peace in the region because fundamental Islam is incapable of coexisting with other religions. The "infidels" have to be converted, enslaved/treated like animals or killed.
Israel has to use force to continue to exist. There are too many countries in the area that given the chance, wouldn't hesitate to invade or destroy them
agreed.
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I don't believe that Israel would ever even be in jeopardy if they built their nation in a legit way. Most extremists would not exist if it was not for Israel's forceful settlement a few decades ago. This will NEVER end.
Quote:
Israel has to use force to continue to exist.
Like I have said, it was built by force therefore it will need to use force in order to exist... This is a wrong thing to do and it decreases everyone's quality of life in that region. Muslims and Jews alike.
What country hasn't started its existance without force? No one just gives up land peacefully to let some other nation start their own country. The US exsists and we were born from force. England, France, China. Every single nation out there has faught for the creation of and to maintain their boarders. I don't see your point on this one, except that you seem to either be very biased and cannot see the truth (due to religion, personal beliefs, ect) or you just like having the opposite opinion on the majority of posts I read.
I do agree with you that this will never end though. The whole middle east will be in turmoil for as long as it is on the map. There will never be peace here. It's sad, but there is too much hate and ignorance. No one is willing to say, OK. In the interest of peace and prosperity, we are willing to let our 2,000 y/o grudges that probably have had nothing to do with me go. There is too much pride. No one wants to seem weak and "back down" when in reality they would be seen as a hero. It's a shame, really it is.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Quote:
What country hasn't started its existance without force?
Would you be OK if Germany invaded New York State today? If they took it by force, with advanced weaponry, would you just let the conflict die and justify their ownership of NY because they "took it by force"? That's very weak.
I am very sure that you would not just let it slide.
UpstateNyZ24 wrote:I don't believe that Israel would ever even be in jeopardy if they built their nation in a legit way. Most extremists would not exist if it was not for Israel's forceful settlement a few decades ago. This will NEVER end.
The Jews didn't create the state with force. The UN created Israel to try and keep peace in the region because the arabs couldn't stand the jewish immigration into the area. The land that they had settled was already purchased from arabs by individual jews or jewish orginazations.
That was not my point. I think you misunderstood me.
Let me requote you...
Quote:
Israel has to use force to continue to exist.
Like I have said, it was built by force therefore it will need to use force in order to exist... This is a wrong thing to do and it decreases everyone's quality of life in that region. Muslims and Jews alike.
Then let me requote me...
Quote:
What country hasn't started its existance without force? No one just gives up land peacefully to let some other nation start their own country. The US exsists and we were born from force. England, France, China. Every single nation out there has faught for the creation of and to maintain their boarders. I don't see your point on this one...
So, I don't understand what you are trying to get at with your last comment. I whole heartedly believe in defending yourself when met with force that challanges your boundries, freedoms, and way of life. I never said differant.
We are also getting off topic.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Did I say UN, I meant EU. Yes, peace treaty from the EU.
Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com
It seems as though there are alot of people here putting the blame for this war solely on Islam. Sure there are crazies on that side, but there are just as many nuts on Israel's side (and in the US, Canada, UK......well, everywhere).
Alot of people here seem to be forgetting one very important thing:
It takes 2 to fight.
Maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back, but I think Israel went more than just a *little* bit overboard with it's "retaliation".
J.J. Lecznar wrote:... bring ur @!#$ over here and i wil blow what u have to hell.... ill put @!#$in 200 dollars on it...
*wipes tears from eyes*
What should their retaliation have been? A helicopter raid that takes out a hezbollah leader or group of leaders? That type of thing is what they've done in the past and hezbollah keeps firing rockets into israel. diplomacy hasn't worked either.
And their isn't nearly the % of crazies in the us, canada or uk that their are in muslim countries.
I don't think Israel is blameless, but I do support their right to exist without constant attacks. I do not support raids or attacks by Hezbollah or Hamas. In that regard, I do hold Islam responsible.
The religion isn't the problem. It's the people that use it to justify their biggoted ideas.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
The real enemy is Iran. Not the citizens, but its government supporting the actions of Lebanon. They will be hit.
Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com
Nearly 60 years ago, when Isreal was establishged, there was a promise of a Palestinian state. The land was allocated and everything, but then Syria decided to take the land for themselves, and Isreal retailiated and took it back, along with parts of Jordan and Labanon. That allied Lebanon with Syria (who now dominates) in a battle against Isreal with everyone forgetting that the land was promised to Palestinians. The Palestianians have been hurt by everyone in the region, not just Isreal. The thing is that 60 years later, most forget the truth, that Syria really started the trouble and now Palestians are allied against Isreal who was initially defending their land but eneded up keeping it because Syria posed too great of a threat.
Really, the trouble started when somebody drew a line on the map and called it Isreal, but it's far more complexe than that.
None of this has anything to do with religion.
PAX
Labotomi wrote:What should their retaliation have been? A helicopter raid that takes out a hezbollah leader or group of leaders? That type of thing is what they've done in the past and hezbollah keeps firing rockets into israel. diplomacy hasn't worked either.
Something a little short of full out war. In one bomb Israel killed a family of 7 Canadian citizens a few days ago in Beirut. Yes I know it was an accident, but does that mean that Canada should go wage war with Israel? IMO, diplomacy was working up until last week. Hitting an upset person over the head with a stick will not make anything better.
Labotomi wrote:And their isn't nearly the % of crazies in the us, canada or uk that their are in muslim countries.
What proof do you have of this? I'm talking REAL, scientifically backed statistics that show Islamic people to have a higher proportion of nuts than any other group of people, and not some preconceived anti-muslim notion you have in your head.
We have more than our fair share of crazy people here who are just as dangerous. Just like Islam, we consider many of our crazies as being "just" and "right" even though the rest of the world recognises them for what they are - war-loving, death dealing idiots. I blame the media (like CNN) for this.
Labotomi wrote:
I don't think Israel is blameless, but I do support their right to exist without constant attacks. I do not support raids or attacks by Hezbollah or Hamas. In that regard, I do hold Islam responsible.
I hold them equally responsible. Hezbollah started this latest mess, but the 'eye for an eye' mentality that exists there blew it completely out of proportion. I have not problem with Israel existing either, but turning this into a full out war is definitely NOT the way to improve relationships.
I just think Israel went very overboard.
As always, Gam, I couldn't agree with you more
J.J. Lecznar wrote:... bring ur @!#$ over here and i wil blow what u have to hell.... ill put @!#$in 200 dollars on it...
*wipes tears from eyes*
The religion is the problem, not the people. The blame is never put on the person, but the means to which brings about his actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin. <><
Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
Manchild-ProPain, out now, Sphereofhiphop.com
Your religion is the reason you're a damn biggot.
Unholysavage wrote:Labotomi wrote:What should their retaliation have been? A helicopter raid that takes out a hezbollah leader or group of leaders? That type of thing is what they've done in the past and hezbollah keeps firing rockets into israel. diplomacy hasn't worked either.
Something a little short of full out war. In one bomb Israel killed a family of 7 Canadian citizens a few days ago in Beirut. Yes I know it was an accident, but does that mean that Canada should go wage war with Israel? IMO, diplomacy was working up until last week. Hitting an upset person over the head with a stick will not make anything better.
What diplomacy has worked? You mean Hezbollah kidnapping the soldiers? Palestinians kidnapping the soldiers?
The bomb that killed the Canadians? You admit that it was an accident so it's not anywhere close to the same thing.
Unholysavage wrote:Labotomi wrote:And their isn't nearly the % of crazies in the us, canada or uk that their are in muslim countries.
What proof do you have of this? I'm talking REAL, scientifically backed statistics that show Islamic people to have a higher proportion of nuts than any other group of people, and not some preconceived anti-muslim notion you have in your head.
We have more than our fair share of crazy people here who are just as dangerous. Just like Islam, we consider many of our crazies as being "just" and "right" even though the rest of the world recognises them for what they are - war-loving, death dealing idiots. I blame the media (like CNN) for this.
I took a poll in my office. 9 out of 9 people surveyed agreed that Muslim countries have more loonies.
And don't try to imply that I'm against Muslims. I'm against Muslim extremists, Hopefully you can see the difference.
Unholysavage wrote:It seems as though there are alot of people here putting the blame for this war solely on Islam. Sure there are crazies on that side, but there are just as many nuts on Israel's side (and in the US, Canada, UK......well, everywhere).
I suppose that you have scientific proof to support your statement. You must since you demand it of everyone else. Please provide your references concerning your claim.
Unholysavage wrote:Labotomi wrote:
I don't think Israel is blameless, but I do support their right to exist without constant attacks. I do not support raids or attacks by Hezbollah or Hamas. In that regard, I do hold Islam responsible.
I hold them equally responsible. Hezbollah started this latest mess, but the 'eye for an eye' mentality that exists there blew it completely out of proportion. I have not problem with Israel existing either, but turning this into a full out war is definitely NOT the way to improve relationships.
How about Israel existing without being attacked by suicide bombers and rockets coming from across their borders on a routine basis. They shouldn't be asked to have to tolerate these attacks. Lebanon is afraid to try to reign in Hezbollah because of the division of it's own military. If Lebanon won't (can't) do it, then nobody but Israel will.
Great, another mid-east war that the US will no doubt stick it's nose in and make exponentially worse.
I can hardly wait for the press conference from Bush announcing the reasons for our getting involved...
Dubya: "Lebanonamon has falafel of mass destruction and against UN regulations have been experimenting with geothermal homus. They are evildoers who mistreat their baba ganouch and quite frankly, heh heh, that burns me up."
Anyone care to wager how long before we split from Iraq and land in Israel as an "obeservation detail"?
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
jbody4jc wrote:The religion is the problem, not the people. The blame is never put on the person, but the means to which brings about his actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin. <><
The Qur'an doesn't espouse the killing of anyone on the basis of religion. Neither does the Torrah, Bible or any other major religion that I'm aware of.
The religion of Islam is fine, those that preach it and warp small passages into meaning well beyond what they were meant for... They're the problem. They've invested in old lies, and perpetuate foolish old feuds. If you want to hold someone responsible for the old ideas: Ibn Timia... wrote a couple of scripts about "real" islam (he was about 200 years removed from the death of the prophet Mohammed, and not descended from him), and they were in some cases insightful (ie: his tome said quite simply that the Earth is, in fact, round, and was not created in 7 days), but in many cases vitriolic against Chrisianity, and very much also Judaism. He was considered a Sheik for his work with mathmatics and astronomy, but, he was never a religious leader.
There are many more people that built on his astronomical work (Christopher Columbus most notably), but his religious inferences were more or less forgotten because they didn't mesh well with anyone else's ideals at the time of the writing.
Now, however, people with influence are using the portions of his writings as part of the Qur'an study. It's like including David Koresh's writings (as ego-centric as they are) in a serious biblical study.
The religion is not the problem, the religion is a set of ideals and beliefs... the people that preach their own set of beliefs and twist (or ignore) the written word, that's the problem.
Religion is a deeply personal thing, and it's one reason I don't like someone telling me what to believe without expecting me to decide for myself.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Rather than bombing everything they can find, maybe they should have tried to track the people who kidnapped those soldiers. Bring them to justice rather than trying to exact vengeance/revenge.
Labotomi wrote:
The bomb that killed the Canadians? You admit that it was an accident so it's not anywhere close to the same thing.
Yes, but how many people in the middle east see anything as an "accident", even if it is one? It just takes one person to see it as an "attack" and all hell can break loose.
Labotomi wrote:And their isn't nearly the % of crazies in the us, canada or uk that their are in muslim countries.
And don't try to imply that I'm against Muslims. I'm against Muslim extremists, Hopefully you can see the difference.
Well, in your original statement (first line) there is no mention of extremists, which only make up a minute fraction of a percentage of all Muslims. To anyone reading that, it most certainly appeared that you grouped all muslims together. Even with your clarification I'm not all that convinced that you separate the two groups.
Labotomi wrote:
Unholysavage wrote:It seems as though there are alot of people here putting the blame for this war solely on Islam. Sure there are crazies on that side, but there are just as many nuts on Israel's side (and in the US, Canada, UK......well, everywhere).
I suppose that you have scientific proof to support your statement. You must since you demand it of everyone else. Please provide your references concerning your claim.
I was a little off in this thread, as you were the only open anti-muslim extremist - I quickly read the 5-6 anti-muslim posts in this thread at work and thought there were a couple more people joining in than just you. My bad, but I can easily come up with something better than taking an office poll.
References....here are other threads on the .org that are most certainly anti-Islam. It's noot great science, but 10000 times better than asking the first 8 people you see at work.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=40375&t=40114#40375
raghead comment, plus all sorts of miscellaneous garbage from guys who served over there. The military guys seem to be the most racist. I guess that's what happens when you get shot at.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=39843&t=39780#39843
Pretty much terrible.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=44082&t=44040#44082
One of the many racist religious rants of jbody4jc. I'm not posting any more of his garbage (and there is alot) because nothing but useless, pointed crap comes from him. Unlike most of his threads, only one religious nut backed him on it.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=43236&t=43203#43236
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=43121&t=43024#43121
Quite the thread; try and ignore every word Titus03 wrote, as he is quite the religious piece of work. This one has "Are you saying we should just sit on our a$$es all day and let these motherf*cking Arabs fly OUR planes into OUR buildings and not retaliate towards them?" from Jason. Plus some "ethnic cleansing" and the "Or is god mad at us because we are trying to eliminate one of the last few aspects of barbaric society from this planet?" by Jaysonz24. That one's one of my favourites.
Anyway, I could go on and on with hundreds of anti-Islamic posts from dozens of people. These were just from 2 minutes of searching, and I know for fact that there were many more in the year or so I've been on the org. If you want more, just search for the words "muslim" or "arabs".
Anyway, at the end of the day you have your opinions and views, and I have mine. In this thread they just happen to be the opposite. No big deal.
J.J. Lecznar wrote:... bring ur @!#$ over here and i wil blow what u have to hell.... ill put @!#$in 200 dollars on it...
*wipes tears from eyes*
Quote:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=40375&t=40114#40375
raghead comment, plus all sorts of miscellaneous garbage from guys who served over there. The military guys seem to be the most racist. I guess that's what happens when you get shot at.
It is really sereal to see a Saint post and then read people's sigs that are replying to him. Really sad...
Sorry to go off topic, but RIP Saint.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
I think this might be the beginning of war world III
and the U.S is right in the middle of it.
Muslims. I honestly do NOT know much about Muslims, but I know one thing...
if you are not a Muslim, and they can't turn you in to a Muslim, you will be killed by Muslims. That's all I need to know.
Thank you very much and have a wonderful day.
its just a @!#$ religion.
The less we know, the better!
Quote:
Should we ship boatloads of bibles by plane into the middle east just to see what happens, and send them in bombshell casings? Should we be allowed to setup servaillance inside mosques within the US? I think we should. Please write and discuss answers and or questions you may have for your and my interest? Let me know what you think... <><
I do think that is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a long time. Today has been a breakthrough. I have heard the funniest thing (which is not in my sig) and now the most ignorant.
P.S. See what happens when you post up old links.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Unholysavage, relax a little. The office poll remark was a joke
Unholysavage wrote:Yes, but how many people in the middle east see anything as an "accident", even if it is one? It just takes one person to see it as an "attack" and all hell can break loose.
Are you trying to make my point for me?
And of course you'll find more remarks against arabs and muslims here than against christians, canadians or americans. The makeup of this board is predomanantly christian (or atheist) and mostly from the us or canada. If you were to visit a muslim board you'd find more anti christian remarks. you'll find more anti us or anti canadian remarks on an arab board.
Unholysavage wrote:Labotomi wrote:And their isn't nearly the % of crazies in the us, canada or uk that their are in muslim countries.
And don't try to imply that I'm against Muslims. I'm against Muslim extremists, Hopefully you can see the difference.
Well, in your original statement (first line) there is no mention of extremists, which only make up a minute fraction of a percentage of all Muslims. To anyone reading that, it most certainly appeared that you grouped all muslims together. Even with your clarification I'm not all that convinced that you separate the two groups.
I wasn't clarifying my statement. My statement about you not making me out to be against all muslims was in response to this statement
Unholysavage wrote:....and not some preconceived anti-muslim notion you have in your head.
I wasn't separating the groups of muslims. Since extremists make up a portion of the entire muslim population then I stand by my statement that a greater % are crazy. If I was only referring to the extremists I would have said that *All* are crazy. If you want to read this as me being anti Muslim then go right ahead. You'll still be wrong. I'm no more against Muslims than I am Jews or Agnostics, Athiests, Hindu, Catholics, Mormons, or any other religion.
Unholysavage wrote:Anyway, at the end of the day you have your opinions and views, and I have mine. In this thread they just happen to be the opposite. No big deal.
I'm sure it won't be the last time
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:jbody4jc wrote:The religion is the problem, not the people. The blame is never put on the person, but the means to which brings about his actions. Love the sinner, hate the sin. <><
ANY religion is fine, those that preach it and warp small passages into meaning well beyond what they were meant for... They're the problem.
The religion is not the problem, the religion is a set of ideals and beliefs... the people that preach their own set of beliefs and twist (or ignore) the written word, that's the problem.
Religion is a deeply personal thing, and it's one reason I don't like someone telling me what to believe without expecting me to decide for myself.
fixed... and left jbody4jc's quote in for good measure.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
There can't be any World Wars anymore.
I believe the defination of World War is to have conflict on both hemispheres. It's a regional conflict. The world is to interconnected with itself to have "WWIII"
Personally, I've been against Israel ever since I had seen the first pictures of an M1 Abrams tank rolling down a street in Gaza, attempting to kill some "non jewish" children throwing rocks at it. Israel was a mistake ever since it was created. Everyone was so "oh, so sorry for the Jews" so they decided to kick out people from there homes becuase they were persicuted. I know it was a horrible thing, but it was a stupid move on the part of the UN to try to make them a home. They should have made a place for them in western europe or something like that. I mean, I didn't see them jump up and make a gypsie home land, did you?
To me, they get what they deserve. They were the ones who in the late 80's and early 90's
ATTACKED Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. For what? More friggin land. And no, dont call them "walls" call them security barricades, becuase lord knows you cant put bad spin on Israel, becuase hey, lets root for the "underdog" even though they are armed to the teeth becuase we gave them everything. I mean, at least Osama was fighting the Soviets and Saddam the Ayatohlla(sp?) I mean, friggin a, they brought this on themselves. If they would have just stayed with where they were at instead of being a bunch of psycotic zelots, then things wouldn't be so bad for them.
And say what you will about me and my beliefs. It just isn't right when 50 INNOCENT people die becuase Israel decided that the terrorists need a fuel depot. Yeah, becuase they are all out driving trucks all day. Or blowing up a seaport, or an air port. Israel needs to have its ass kicked one time really well to snap it back into place.
