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Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:17 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:Let's not forget that is in very trendy in some social circles to be atheist. C'mon, who wants to be the weirdo in his philosophy class that actually believes in God? Nah, much easier to give the collective world the proverbial middle finger and then go drink a beer with your fellow members of the unorganized religion of atheism. After all, who wants to contemplate your brother or grandma burning in hell....No way Jose! If I cover my eyes and plug my ears and hum a Jimmy Buffet song, then it isn't real.


ScottaWhite wrote:Alexis,

1) It is a religion in my opinion, because it shares some close similarities:
a. Atheists have faith.....that there is no God....without proof there is no God.
b. They believe in a "higher power" aka. themselves
c/ They seek non-profit status for their groups that choose to organize
d. They will adamantly defend their position with the same fervor as a so-called religious person.

2.) You really read a lot into my last post.
a. Christianity is mostly trendy in America today if you are running for public office.
b. Having a beer with your fellow atheists does not make you or anyone else an alcoholic.
c. No vendetta against the world, but typically cynical. (a commonly shared trait with many people)
d. No atheists have ever done anything to me personally. I don't dislike them at all, although I disagree with their religion.
e. The post you are complaining about was a blend of sarcasm with a smattering of truth as I see it.

.


So let me get this straight. You took a philosophy class populated by some atheists and an atheist teacher, didn't you? Because every example you bring up mentions a crazy atheist teacher trying to corrupt all their students with the "religion" of atheism. You know for most of this thread I thought you were just ignorant. But it's become increasingly clear that you are, in fact, not very bright.

First, lets clear this bull about atheism being a religion in your opinion. From our little friend the dictionary:

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən) pronunciation
n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

So remind me who my higher power is? Also, who governs the universe? Because last I checked I believed in no higher power and that no one governs the universe. But hey, you know everything about us atheists, so do tell how that works. And how exactly do I believe in myself as a higher power? Higher than what? Than who? I'm pretty sure I consider myself to equal to everyone else. Or does not believing in god automatically mean I have a personality complex that entails believing I'm better than everyone? I certainly don't recall believing that. But like I said, you've got us figured out so obviously I've no clue what I'm talking about.

Finally, I'm going to touch on your little "Atheists have faith.....that there is no God....without proof there is no God." bit. See, here's another little thing you don't comprehend. You can't prove the nonexistence of something. I can tell you there are no unicorns or flying pigs, but I can't prove it. The burden of proof is on those who believe with no proof of it's existence, not those who say it doesn't exist. I don't need proof to say something, in this case god, doesn't exist. That's not "faith."





Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Sunday, March 09, 2008 5:53 PM on j-body.org
You are defending with a fervor Tristan. What would your little friend have to say about a religion such as a pantheistic religion. God is all and in all, we are all god. There is not universal creator of governor there. And I had to resort to googling to find any such organized religion. Certainly nothing in the phonebook with all the other religions.

Humanism (which goes hand in hand with atheism) ....yes, you are the ultimate being in the universe. Not a supernatural power, but your moral code of ethics trumps those of others. You may grudgingly submit to a set of laws however.

Your burden of proof thing can work this way too. You teach your son to believe in Santa Claus, but junior just wont let it go after 14 yrs. He insists St. Nick is real, and you jump up and down frothing at the mouth screaming that it isn't so, defying him to prove it. Where lies the burden of proof? Is there even a burden?

BTW, I didn't take a philosophy class at a community college and walk out puffed up, smug in the knowledge that I was very trendy now that I discovered there was no god.

I do not rail on you atheists. And if you read carefully, I liberally use phrases such as "as I see it, In my opinion," etc. It boggles my weak-narrow mind why some of you feel the need to pepper your arguments with liberal doses of personal insults.

And be careful about using words such as" Every, All the time, Always. Chicks do that. You shouldn't.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Sunday, March 09, 2008 7:51 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:You are defending with a fervor Tristan. What would your little friend have to say about a religion such as a pantheistic religion. God is all and in all, we are all god. There is not universal creator of governor there. And I had to resort to googling to find any such organized religion. Certainly nothing in the phonebook with all the other religions.

Humanism (which goes hand in hand with atheism) ....yes, you are the ultimate being in the universe. Not a supernatural power, but your moral code of ethics trumps those of others. You may grudgingly submit to a set of laws however.

Your burden of proof thing can work this way too. You teach your son to believe in Santa Claus, but junior just wont let it go after 14 yrs. He insists St. Nick is real, and you jump up and down frothing at the mouth screaming that it isn't so, defying him to prove it. Where lies the burden of proof? Is there even a burden?

BTW, I didn't take a philosophy class at a community college and walk out puffed up, smug in the knowledge that I was very trendy now that I discovered there was no god.

I do not rail on you atheists. And if you read carefully, I liberally use phrases such as "as I see it, In my opinion," etc. It boggles my weak-narrow mind why some of you feel the need to pepper your arguments with liberal doses of personal insults.

And be careful about using words such as" Every, All the time, Always. Chicks do that. You shouldn't.


First off, who exactly is my little friend? I don't recall bringing a little friend into this conversation. And what exactly is your point about pantheism? What are my thoughts on it? Do I subscribe to it? What exactly do you want to know?

Also, I'm not defending that I'm right. I'm not telling you to subscribe to my opinions. I'm attempting to point out your misconceptions about atheists and what you "think" you know about us. That's a far cry from defending atheism and saying it's the only way and all others are wrong.

I find it impressive how you can simply come to all these conclusions out of nowhere. I believe in a different set of morals (which, I believe I stated earlier were pretty much in line aside from a few exceptions with the morals that Christians and other popular religions subscribe to) and therefore grudgingly submit to a set of laws? Remind where I said I disapprove of the laws of this nation? And when did I state that my moral code should be the one true code and all laws based off of?

Now, with your outlandish example of proof, there are several issues. One, I don't froth at the mouth and scream. Just not me, and I certainly don't scream over belief issues. Now, if "junior" wants to believe in Santa Claus against reason then so be it. It's his life. Just like if my children subscribe to a religion I will fully support them. It's THEIR LIFE. Not mine. I don't get to choose what they believe. In any case, my entire point with the topic of proof was simply to emphasize that it's not "faith" that tells us there's no god. Faith is what those who subscribe to religion and a deity have. It's not faith that tells me there is no santa claus. It's not faith that tells me that there are no flying pigs. It's faith that tells me there is a god and a heaven and hell. There is no PROOF any of these exists, but those who are christians have FAITH that they all exist.





Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:08 PM on j-body.org
So let me ask one question Tristan? If there is no proof of something's existence, then you don't believe in it? Or does that only apply to God? Very simple question actually, although you may wish to consult Akbar before you answer.


Oh, and your little friend was the Dictionary you mentioned.

I mentioned that particular flavor of pantheism, because it didn't fall into the dictionary's def of religion, thereby making it plausible that atheism could be a religion in an non-webster's sense of the word.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Sunday, March 09, 2008 11:52 PM on j-body.org
Hmm, I had forgotten I called the dictionary my little friend. My apologies on that note. As for pantheism, it still entails a god figure. Granted, it's not the traditional figure head and is made up of everyone and everything, but it's still a "supreme being." Thus it can still be classified as a religion. There is no belief in something for atheism. It's quite the opposite actually. Atheism is a philosophy, not a religion.

Now, for your question. Pretty much if it can't be proved then I don't believe in it. And notice I said can't, and not if there is no proof that's been found yet. If someone can come up with proof of god's existence then I will gladly adjust my stance. But not a single christian, in nearly 2000 years, has been able to provide tangible proof.





Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 4:39 AM on j-body.org
Tristan wrote:Hmm, I had forgotten I called the dictionary my little friend. My apologies on that note. As for pantheism, it still entails a god figure. Granted, it's not the traditional figure head and is made up of everyone and everything, but it's still a "supreme being." Thus it can still be classified as a religion. There is no belief in something for atheism. It's quite the opposite actually. Atheism is a philosophy, not a religion.

Now, for your question. Pretty much if it can't be proved then I don't believe in it. And notice I said can't, and not if there is no proof that's been found yet. If someone can come up with proof of god's existence then I will gladly adjust my stance. But not a single christian, in nearly 2000 years, has been able to provide tangible proof.




people once believed the world was flat until someoen became smart enough to be able to prove it. im sure there are thousands of things that people thought can't be proved that are now common things.


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Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 9:06 AM on j-body.org
Has anyone ever seen an ion (not the car). No, but we can believe in its existence.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 9:16 AM on j-body.org
Take all the individual minerals and chemicals that make up a Cadillac, then throw them into a giant mixing bowl. Shake it up for 100 billion years and you still wont have a Cadillac. It took an intelligence to make it.

Same thing with a mammal. It is impossible to prove evolution, because you can never tell me where it all originated. All you can tell me is that It come from something else, which came from something else, for infinity. There may be various flavors of this religion, but in the end it is the same idea.

cause and effect. Where did the cause come from? What caused that cause and there we have infinity again. I guess it seems easier and more palatable for someone to believe in the eternality of matter and the insane odds needed to cause enough positive mutations over billions and trillions of years to end up with a man, Rather than acknowledge what is innate in all men on the planet...a higher power. No one is born a baptist, or catholic or atheist, no more than some people are born Lakers fans. It is learned behaviour/ belief. However, belief in God is natural, and unless the atheistic question is posed by someone else, all men will have a feeling inside that there is a god of some sorts.

Now have at it boys.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 12:40 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:Take all the individual minerals and chemicals that make up a Cadillac, then throw them into a giant mixing bowl. Shake it up for 100 billion years and you still wont have a Cadillac. It took an intelligence to make it.

Same thing with a mammal. It is impossible to prove evolution, because you can never tell me where it all originated. All you can tell me is that It come from something else, which came from something else, for infinity. There may be various flavors of this religion, but in the end it is the same idea.

cause and effect. Where did the cause come from? What caused that cause and there we have infinity again. I guess it seems easier and more palatable for someone to believe in the eternality of matter and the insane odds needed to cause enough positive mutations over billions and trillions of years to end up with a man, Rather than acknowledge what is innate in all men on the planet...a higher power. No one is born a baptist, or catholic or atheist, no more than some people are born Lakers fans. It is learned behaviour/ belief. However, belief in God is natural, and unless the atheistic question is posed by someone else, all men will have a feeling inside that there is a god of some sorts.

Now have at it boys.

.


No. God is not a natural innate belief help by everyone. It's an explanation people came up for what they don't understand. Just because you believe something doesn't mean you're right about everything. If you want to say atheism is a learned behavior, then so is religion and the idea of god. I had no innate belief in god. I was taught about god and religion. I then questioned the validity of those teachings and came to the conclusion that there was no god. Remember, there isn't a single atheist in my family and I didn't meat any until I was nearly 18. So who exactly taught me that there was no god? And what about polytheism? Was it innate feeling in those people that there was more than one god...or were they just taught there was more than one god?

Now, you want to talk about cause and effect. What caused the cause? Well who created the creator? You want to argue intangibles then answer that question your self.

By the way, since you found it necessary to lecture me on this note, I might as well return the favor. Be careful about using words like all. Chicks do that. You shouldn't.

Also, I find it rather interesting that you start this topic under the semblance of trying to learn about atheism and why we believe what we believe, but all you've done is dismiss our opinions and attempt to prove you're right about everything. So what exactly was the point of this thread? If you don't care what we believe and just want to show we're wrong, then why try to hide it? Just start a topic, "I think atheism is wrong and people are stupid for thinking that way."



Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 2:56 PM on j-body.org
As soon as you understand why you deny all the other possible religions, you'll understand why I deny yours.

You are faced with two basic choices:

a.) The universe and everything in it simply IS and WAS
b.) Some random omnipotent guy simply IS and WAS and made ALL THIS in less than a week.

right.


"however, belief in God is natural"
Only if it's driven in to you from a young age, which is how it's done.

"Has anyone ever seen an ion (not the car). No, but we can believe in its existence."
Actually, the answer to that rhetoric is yes...

"You teach your son to believe in Santa Claus, but junior just wont let it go after 14 yrs. He insists St. Nick is real, and you jump up and down frothing at the mouth screaming that it isn't so, defying him to prove it. Where lies the burden of proof? Is there even a burden?"
Well... Yes. You are proposing a god. It is not our responsibility to disprove your proposal, it is your responsibility to prove it to us. You did make a good metaphor however. God = Santa Clause for grownups.



There's too much blood in my caffeine stream.
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 3:57 PM on j-body.org
The thing you're erroneously assuming, Scott, is that everything is confined to one state: matter. It's not. I can't put a word ont6o what it is, except maybe substance (to differenitate it from void), but really, one substance (say, matter) can become another substance (say, energy) and vice-versa. After all, how could a ova the size of a grain of sand and a spematazoa that is miniscule in comparison become something with the mass of, say, 87 kilos? A little matter, a bit of energy, synthesize it and transmogrify it and voila.

The point, matter just doesn't beget matter, substance, or rather, stuff begets stuff.

Of course, this is just a theory

Enemy: coice a is rather incorrect. it should be The universe and all the stuff (and void) in it was and always will be, just not in the same form that you left it in .


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Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 4:35 PM on j-body.org
True, and I stand corrected.

And since I'm back...


"Take all the individual minerals and chemicals that make up a Cadillac, then throw them into a giant mixing bowl. Shake it up for 100 billion years and you still wont have a Cadillac. It took an intelligence to make it."
Actually, you WOULD have a cadillac, just not whole. And given enough time (2nd law of thermodynamics, read up) the pieces would eventually fall into place.



There's too much blood in my caffeine stream.
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 4:39 PM on j-body.org
Oh, and I think what keeper is getting at is that everything is essentially the same. Matter IS energy, at least according to Einstein. But what would he know, he was an atheist.




There's too much blood in my caffeine stream.
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 7:42 PM on j-body.org
Enemy Toast:

"I guess it seems easier and more palatable for someone to believe in the eternality of matter (the universe is and always was) and the insane odds needed to cause enough positive mutations over billions and trillions of years to end up with a man I guess this would go along with your choice (a)

If you had been thrown on an island as a tot, and survived by yourself, even as a wildman, you'd still wonder where you came from...where the stars came from....etc.

And you think you'd finally get a cadillac? After how many trillions upon trillions of years? Are we talking 500,000,000,000,000 to the 20th power here? Ok...and people say I am ridiculous.

Finally, could someone post a photograph of an actually ion. (again not the car). I need to see it to understand the "rhetoric"

I dont call atheists stupid and I dont say they are stupid for believing that way....I simply disagree with their religion and attempt to explain why.

.




“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 7:52 PM on j-body.org
Yup, law of conservation of mass-energy.



Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 8:37 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote: I simply disagree with their religion and attempt to explain why.



Your opinions/ignorance so far have been entertaining but that may be the dumbest thing I've seen you post so far. You ask why we are atheists so you can tell us why were wrong? I think you've proven yourself pretty uneducated to everyone in this thread except yourself... I think its time to stop talking.

Prove theres a god, until then STFU with your holier than thou BS.

And atheists are the ones with a god complex right.... LOL



Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Monday, March 10, 2008 9:24 PM on j-body.org
Hell you can MAKE carbon ions in your friggin microwave.

So by pointing out the alleged incorrectness of choice A, I assume your gonna go with choice B! God!

b.) Some random omnipotent guy simply IS and WAS and made ALL THIS in less than a week...... Alrighty then!

500,000,000,000,000 to the 20th, or simply 5.e+33, is a bit to long. There WAS no cadillac, there was a basic planet with a basic atmosphere and some basic single celled organisms in the ocean, which gradually led way to fish and amphibians, birds and land dwellers, etc.

On the island, I would wonder, but thanks to a modern education, I don't.

I am content with my beliefs.






There's too much blood in my caffeine stream.
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:12 AM on j-body.org
Give Scott some credit--he has the right to disacree and pintificate on his stance, as do we all. Even if we agree or not.

More food for thought--many say entropyy is the breaking down of all systems. Are the systems breaking down, or is it the failure of one system sowes the seeds of another?

After all, decaying corpses fertilize new seeds


Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:22 AM on j-body.org
So where did those single-celled organisms come from? Did atoms (which came from where?) get together and bump around, and form a single celled living organism?

Just wondering. Also wondering who will be the first to say something like "so there was this random omnipotent being just chilling etc)
RATHER than answering the question about the organism.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 1:14 PM on j-body.org
[quote=Keeper Of The Light™ (Strazca)]Give Scott some credit--he has the right to disacree and pintificate on his stance, as do we all. Even if we agree or not.

More food for thought--many say entropyy is the breaking down of all systems. Are the systems breaking down, or is it the failure of one system sowes the seeds of another?

After all, decaying corpses fertilize new seeds



I don't give him any credit. If he made this thread with the intention of learning something I would. He made this thread to tell us why we don't believe and that we are wrong. There is no attempt to learn or understand or anything just to judge. There's big difference in defendng your beliefs and making a thread with the sole intension of telling everyone that they are wrong. That's not defending your believes that's trying to force your beliefs on someone else.



Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:21 PM on j-body.org
Life didn't originate on Earth. For a very long time after the Earth formed (yes, formed), it was basically entirely volcanic. Much like there are organisms starting anew after a forest fire, the beginnings of life did exist when things cooled down. So, why is that we have to keep answering to these questions, but you don't have to answer for the origin of GOD?



There's too much blood in my caffeine stream.

Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:03 PM on j-body.org
Enemy Toast,

New organisms arise out of forest fires? New as in never-before...a new species etc, or new as in the dormant seeds germinate in the wake of the extreme heat?

It amazes me that people can believe the earth has always been/ has been forming forever/ that life originated elsewhere (but which then begs the question....yeah you know) Humans evolved over millions of years of random mutations that just happened to be randomly positive for the species. The earth just happened to settle into orbit around the sun at just the right spot so as to be suitable for life (class M planet ) Other theories of random gases floating in space and then BANG, a planet!

The faith it requires to be an atheist, and in turn, and evolutionist is a far greater effort than any other religion in the world. In fact, in requires not a scientific mind, but rather a rebellious mind that would rather believe inestimable odds than to believe in a Creator. Because, as I said in my original post, it stems from a refusal to believe that my choices in life have eternal consequences and that I am not the master of my soul.

Most evolutionists/ atheists claim the earth is in the range of 100 million years old to 20billion years old. Quite a big gap there, but how do they measure it? Moon dust? carbon dating? Heck, the weatherman is wrong half the time, but his colleagues want me to believe that they have the age of the earth nailed down to give or take 100 billion years old.

And ok, I admit it....the thread was a ruse, a ploy, a nefarious and dastardly scheme...designed to question atheists on their beliefs, challenge their beliefs, and accept the same from them.

And lastly Toast. God is and always has been. Jesus said I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The eternal God. God also said, the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I apologize if anyone here misinterpreted any of my comments as malicious. In reviewing this entire thread, I've seen more hostility from your side of the argument than I even hinted at. I haven't called anyone stupid, that I recall....I haven't said your religion was stupid....flawed and incorrect, but not stupid.

My tone has remained civil, albeit sarcastic at times. Others resorted to ranting and name-calling. Entirely within their right to do so, but irrelevant to the topic.

These atheist/ creation type threads pop up every now and then, and you should expect one to arise again someday. Different author, but same argument.. And before you accuse someone of being adamant, bull-headed, inflexible and always being right, make sure you aren't doing the same thing.

Some folks that I "know" from the past few years are as sarcastic as anyone I know (KOTL, and GAM) We probably disagree on everything there is, including which way to mount the toilet paper roll. However, in the end, despite the disagreements I have with those two, I respect their ability to remain focused and mostly civil. Have a nice day y'all.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:29 PM on j-body.org
Telling your your stupid is not name calling. Its a fact.

If you or anyone else believes otherwise then your opinions are flawed and incorrect.

Thats the way this works right?



Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:19 PM on j-body.org
Let me put it this way for you darkstar,

If I say the color of the pen in my hand is royal blue, and you opine that it is yellow, it doesn't result in a difference of opinions, it results in you being wrong and my being right.

If you say that the current Celtics could beat the Red Aurbach celtics in a playground match....well, that would be a matter of opinion.

Have a nice day and remember to eat your vitamins.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Re: Why Be An Atheist?
Tuesday, March 11, 2008 9:51 PM on j-body.org
ScottaWhite wrote:Let me put it this way for you darkstar,

If I say the color of the pen in my hand is royal blue, and you opine that it is yellow, it doesn't result in a difference of opinions, it results in you being wrong and my being right.

Have a nice day and remember to eat your vitamins.

.


I figure I would stop in and see what I missed but it seems like a whole lot of nada.... So heres some philosophy for you, since you crave it so dearly.

Scott how do you even know that pen in your hand is royal blue? You were taught it was royal blue correct?
However If Ryan was taught it was yellow who has the right to say he is wrong or not?

See what one has learned, could be the exact opposite of what another person has learned or was taught through his/her own experience. So in technicality no one is right or wrong. Same thing goes for in the aspect of this topic, you learned your beliefs, others earned theirs.

So you stick to what you think you know and others will stick to what they think they know.. Trying to convince otherwise just proves my point further about religions asserting themselves onto other people as you have done throughout this thread. Don't questions ones beliefs, simply because they don't believe in your god. If anything try to learn and understand what they are saying, cause it might come back to bite you in the ass like it did in this thread...

Thank you and have a lovely day


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