Josh Mangus wrote:I am an Iraq war veteran and I took my duty very seriously. But I can't remember anything that I did that would impact people back home other than keep my buddies alive.

Just to clarify... when I say "better for us" I'm mainly talking about "you and your buddies" for the most part.

There is also something else that I really should tell everyone.. if more than anything.. for respect to those serving and are or have been deployed to the middle east.

Yes I was in the military..... no I wasn't ever deployed.... that's right.... I was never deployed to the middle east....

Although most of my squadron did go, I actually volunteered to go, and when my squadron came bake.... I had less friends... I was forced to stay at my permanent duty station.

I never said that I was deployed... but people here seem to assume that... and I just want to clear that up. I was in training the first time and the other times... my squadron had me busy at the base and didn't put me on the list. The injuries that I have did happen "in the line of duty" but where not caused by the enemy. And since I know Gam will ask... some of the experiences and things I've talked about that you assumed where from being exposed to war in the middle east actually stem from other experiences (some in the military... some not). I'd rather not go into detail.. but I'll say although I wasn't deployed to Iraq.... that doesn't mean that I was never put in danger during my military service or other.. and I do know what it's like to be under fire.

I haven't contradicted any of you until know probably because I feel guilty for the fact that I didn't go and and that somehow maybe if I went in place of one of my friends that didn't make it home...they would still be here.... If I had to choose between going and making it home, or not going at all... I would have went (like I said... I actually asked my Chief in person to send me).

On a different note.... a lot of you don't realize that the media never tells the true story..... what most civilians know about the war is greatly skewed by the media..... your not supposed to know what is really going on.... most of what you think and are told are true is actually false.... so unless your high enough in the military.... you don't know the truth.... as far as you know.... the reason we are still there is for something completely different than you are being told... and I can almost guarantee that it is. Your always have been, and always will be lied to about stuff like that.... it's not just the medias fault... they are also being fed false information. 90% of the stuff you see on the news that actually did happen..... happened at least 4 months before you hear about it.... and I know that for a fact from when I was in the service. During the first gulf war.... when you all saw our troops entering the gulf on TV.... we where actually leaving... it's standard practice to delay information to the media for tactical reasons.

Just try to remember that there is always more to it than you are being told and remember to factor that in.

Actually I wasn't going to ask, You've already explained that at some point I believe, Weeble.

As far as being lied to by the Military censors (bare in mind, the media has to pre-screen their reports to military censors first), I expect that. It's part of the reason I use books instead of news reports to get the full story, you know this right? Plus, I don't take one person/media organization's word for it. I'm outside the bubble, and it's a lot easier for me to get less-biased/censored information.






Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I know what goes on over here and don't have to justify to anyone what the reasons are for being over here

What I am doing feels right to me in my heart and that is all that matters

It does sadden me at times to see the outrageous opinions and garbage that is spewed from some mouths

I just wanted to make sure.




The biggest problem with arguments like this is that there are so many sides of the story and different perspectives of looking at it. There are some people that are very passionate about the subject, some that just have an opinion, some that know a lot about it, and some that no nothing..... but every one has thier say.

And as far as the title of this post goes...

How is anyone in Iraq defending US Freedom?

As of the moment..... I honestly don't see how they are.... in reality... the only thing our troops are protecting at the moment is eachother and certain cluters of natives over there that are cooperating. There is very little that happens over there at the moment that directly effects us in North America.... wich is probably why the war isn't on everyones minds all the time anymore..... but in the long run..... well we will just have to wait and see.

weebel i agree with you in a lot of dirrerent aspects since ive been reading this topic. ive been over there twice already. actually just came home from a 15 month tour this time. we really arent defending anyones freedom in the us. not that i can see atleast. no, you never get even half of the full story of what really goes on over there. when i was there this time some people from our government had gone to bahgdad to visit and see how things were. the green zone, the same place that they let you leave your weapons on your bed and walk around all day without a care in the world. being with my unit we have been going into some of the worste places that i can think of. myself and some of my soldiers were sitting watching afn when they had the interview to say "how they thought everything was coming along." the whole thing was bs, completely. they dont fly into a place like where ive been and where my unit is going to continue to go because there too afraid something bad would happen. all the news does is either 1. try to bring out the bad things that the military does, or 2. try to show the people of this country a false sence of security so they can lead people to believe that theres a great reason that ive lost some of my best friends.

as far as us doing any good over there. i would have to say yes, we are making some type of a difference. its just funny to sit back and watch the bs on tv, listen to civilians views on the subject, and read about it everywhere. i know me, personally am sick and tired of hearing people that just want to rant and rave about this subject. yes i think its stupid that were there, yes were losing lives for an unjust cause, but what some people fail to realize is they need to stop being selfish. im not for or against the war, even though it shouldnt be called a war beause that was called off a long time ago. so this situation that were in, we can not pull out right now and send everyone home. we have too much invested into the country right now it would take a hell of a lot longer than a year for us to get all the equipment back that we have over there as well as all the troops. that alone costs a ton of money.

yes, iraq does have there own army. they have come a long way since the last time i was there. the only bad part about the whole "war" is that you dont know who you can trust. the iraqi police are crooked, you have men, women, and children of all ages that are against you. at the same time you have people that are with you, trying to help make a difference in there country.

the past 15 months for me has been a big deal for the area that we were in. the change in the way people live, they are defending themselves, they are cleaning up after themselves, and there government is getting more involved that ever.

the thing that most people dont see on tv, or read in the newspapers is the trash thats thrown around everywhere, the people s*** in the middle of the street, roads and sidewalks blown up, bodies floating around in the rivers. the way they live compaired to us is difficult. you go over there and wonder how they can live the way they do because we have so much more. nobody really looks outside the box on this whole thing. everyone is too busy looking inside the box: oil, bush sr, bush jr, 9-11, and other things that have happened. when people stop putting the blame on someone to make themselves feel better about themselves. if you look outside the box then you see that they arent afraid to walk out of there house any time of day, there not afraid to open up markets and sell things, they arent afraid of picking up the trash everywhere, fixing there power lines, water lines, everything. the whole country has changed a lot, just in ways that more than 70% of americans will never see.

weebel, just wanna say that im sorry that the va is pushin you around man. its the same thing that 3 of my buddies are going through right now themselves. maybe one day the government will think about the soldiers that there sending over there, and start taking care of them every once in a while.

before some of you say something about it, i know my spelling and grammer is off. i really dont give a s***....

^^^^^ finally... someone posted that knows what they are talking about.

My understanding is that we are mainly acting as a police force over there for the most part (a martial law of sorts).

The one reason that I see that justifies us staying there is that they actually need our help if they ever want to live decent lives... the problem is that there is soo much work to do, and when you have certain groups of people fighting back it makes it kinda hard.

I heard about the living conditions you spoke of... I just didn't know how much of it was true...

I think what pisses me off more than anything is that... now that I'm out, and I see these "insurgent" taped videos of them blowing up HMMWV's and what not on TV, and you can hear the pieces of @!#$ laughing about how they just killed a few more of us..... it makes me want to say.... @!#$ them..... let the f'in bastards live in there 3rd world country hell hole..... if they want to live like that.... then they deserve to.... the problem is that there are so many people there that are sided with us and we would be letting them down. In the end... it really comes down to if it's really our responsibility to help or even care.

As for the VA thing... the farthest I've gotten is a letter in the mail saying that I didn't show up to the doctor appointment when I never actually was notified of one..... now that I've been working enough to have some vacation saved.... I should really start hounding them again.

.. one question,

have we been attacked on our shores since 9-11?

I for one rather keep the fighting over there.

So i guess its working?

we started this, I for one would like to see a better country come out of it, as we did with Japan, or Germany in the late 40's

you all must really miss Cpl Germain. I know another Marine NCO could come up with better reasons then I.

Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, May 05, 2008 7:46 PM

"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taesch: Not to be a dick, but how many times before 9/11 were you attacked on US shores?

Do you honestly think that being in Iraq is going to stop people already in the US from doing whatever they wanted to do?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Yes.

it is known over there, if you want to kill Infidel's go to Iraq.


spell my name correctly, 5 years now and you still cant get it right.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:.. one question,

have we been attacked on our shores since 9-11?

I for one rather keep the fighting over there.

So i guess its working?

we started this, I for one would like to see a better country come out of it, as we did with Japan, or Germany in the late 40's

you all must really miss Cpl Germain. I know another Marine NCO could come up with better reasons then I.

Chris

OK... severe differences in those wars compared to this one...

For Japan..... we finally got fed up and dropped 2 atomic bombs on 2 of their major cities killing millions of innocent civilians.... and when Japan saw the power they had.... they yelled... "we give the @!#$ up !". then they disarmed themselves, and we pumped a bunch of money back into their country to build them back up as an ally... (guilt playing a big factor)... Nothing like the war today.

History lesson...... The Enola Gay dropped the bomb called "Fat man" on Hiroshima, and the Plane "Boxcar" dropped the bomb "little boy" on Nagasaki... both planes where B29 Super-fortresses.

As far as the Germany side.... they where trying to take over Europe, and we fought long and hard to push them back with the help of Britain and France, and when we finally did.... we had to take out most of their military..... we where at full out war with them.... and when we won.... we just up and left.... we didn't stick around and try to help them.

The war today isn't much different from the war in Korea or Vietnam in the broad and tactical sense...... In Korea.... well... we are still there... and the DMZ isn't a place you want to be hanging around although the war is over.... and we all (or should) know how Vietnam ended..... Both those wars involved us entering a foreign country with the intent to suppress an enemy threat within and protect the locals that where being harmed much like today. Neither of those 2 wars ended well for us.... it got so bad in Vietnam that we literally had to grab all our @!#$ and leave.

If history as taught us anything... it's that these types of wars normally don't have a happy ending.... and I can't help but to believe that this one will end the same way... especially with the latest trends.

Almost, Weeble, Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima by Enola Gay, Fatman was Nagasaki. And actually, we did help Germany. At the end of the war, all of the major Allied Powers (US, France, Britain, and Russia) each got a piece of Germany. With the cold war fallout soon afterwards, east Germany split off under communist rule and behind the Iron Curtain.

However, you are correct in that this is another vietnam.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:Yes.

it is known over there, if you want to kill Infidel's go to Iraq.


spell my name correctly, 5 years now and you still cant get it right.

Chris

There's still the same thing happening in Afghanistan. It seems that Pakistani's and Muslim Indians are moving along into the northern areas of Afghanistan.

And sorry on the spelling error, messed up a while ago and it stuck. I'll try to iron that out.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Yes,
if you sit on the broader of Iraq, or Afghanistan, you can see the insurgents come though, BUT we can not do anything until they shoot at us.

thank you UN.

we started it, for whatever reason, we need to build a country before we leave.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Isn't the Iraqi Border patrol on it's feet yet?

Either way, you're on the border of another country that may or may not want to co-operate, it sucks, but that's they way the cookie crumbles.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Weebel wrote:

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:.. one question,

have we been attacked on our shores since 9-11?

OK... severe differences in those wars compared to this one...

For Japan..... we finally got fed up and dropped 2 atomic bombs on 2 of their major cities killing millions of innocent civilians.... and when Japan saw the power they had.... they yelled... "we give the @!#$ up !". then they disarmed themselves, and we pumped a bunch of money back into their country to build them back up as an ally... (guilt playing a big factor)... Nothing like the war today.

.

And how many US life's were saved by doing it?

think, why did we do it, really hard now....


we didn't start this, (then and now) it can be said, that this "war" is for Iraq's government violating the cease fire agreement, and all this is, OIF I, OIF II, is a continuation of the '91 "war"

If you don't like it, do something about it, run for office, wright a congress critter, something! any action is better then no action.

we did what we had to at the time, even if no WMD's were found (LOL if you people really think that...) the people are still better off over there.


and about the whole " it's different", there was this much dislike of WW2 in 1944 as there is for the war on terrorism now.


so once more, you people that really don't like it, ( on a personal note, i don't agree with it, my constitution says there has to be a congressional vote to go to war, and a deceleration of war, there was none.) please go vote.

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Japan was already on the ropes and on the run in late 1944. There was serious doubt at the time that the nuclear weapon solution was necessary. It was a display of power, Hiroshima was a major communications centre, and Nagasaki was a logistics centre, and either way they couldn't have mounted any kind of serious defence or even a retaliation if the US had pushed.

As far as the Congress declaring war, it hasn't happened since Korea. Vietnam was a "Police Action" Afghanistan in the 80's didn't happen officially, the reinstating of the Shah of Iran in the 70's by US marines was aid to quell civil unrest, Iraq in 1991 was a UN/NATO action... same as now (even though the UN voted down invasion plans pretty succinctly because basically everyone wanted dejure proof of weapons violations), and Afghanistan is a NATO operation in support of a UN Mission. Mobilizing troops into battlefields isn't covered in the constitution even though in my books it's analogous to war.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Actually Gam.... it's called "Military Action", not "Police Action" (in the US anyway)... also.... about all the history stuff..... are you looking this crap up on the Internet or do you just happen to know all this crap? I'm only going from memory (which explains any simple mistakes).

And Taetsch Z-24 as far as doing something about it instead of bitching...... I was in the service when the war started... that day sucked.... So don't direct any comments like that to me. (assuming you where... if not... then disregard)... To be honest.... I really do think I could do good as a politician or president... although my no bull@!#$ straight to the point, down to earth attitude would screw it for me... Hell.... I know how to stop gas prices from climbing anymore and force them back down... the problem is that our President wouldn't have the balls to do it... but I would.

No we didn't start this war.... they did.... we where attacked first.... we just went the wrong way with it.

Bombing Japan didn't save any Americans lives other than the troops that would have died if we continued the ground assault instead.... Life in the states would have been the same either way. Personally.. I think the only reason we dropped the bombs is because we wanted an excuse to finally use our shiny new (at the time) toys in combat.

Some of you people are kidding yourselves..... there are going to be terrorist until the end of time no matter what we do.... if you really think that staying in the middle east is actually keeping terrorism from happening.... your a retard.... we can police them all we want.... certain groups of people will still be able to get together and plan thing... besides..... not all terrorists come from Iraq.

^^^and we dropped them to scare Russia. Fat lot of good that did.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Wade Jarvis wrote:I do not feel any of us are in any position to have an informed say about it. We do not have all the all the information that is privy to the president now and we did not have the information he had at the time. None of us even know for sure what information he was given then. We do not know what his advisors are saying now to him now behind closed doors. All we hear is the dog and pony show and right vs left from the politicians. This makes us all armchair critics.

x2



Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

Weebel wrote:Actually Gam.... it's called "Military Action", not "Police Action" (in the US anyway)... also.... about all the history stuff..... are you looking this crap up on the Internet or do you just happen to know all this crap? I'm only going from memory (which explains any simple mistakes).

And Taetsch Z-24 as far as doing something about it instead of bitching...... I was in the service when the war started... that day sucked.... So don't direct any comments like that to me. (assuming you where... if not... then disregard)... To be honest.... I really do think I could do good as a politician or president... although my no bull@!#$ straight to the point, down to earth attitude would screw it for me... Hell.... I know how to stop gas prices from climbing anymore and force them back down... the problem is that our President wouldn't have the balls to do it... but I would.

No we didn't start this war.... they did.... we where attacked first.... we just went the wrong way with it.

Bombing Japan didn't save any Americans lives other than the troops that would have died if we continued the ground assault instead.... Life in the states would have been the same either way. Personally.. I think the only reason we dropped the bombs is because we wanted an excuse to finally use our shiny new (at the time) toys in combat.

Some of you people are kidding yourselves..... there are going to be terrorist until the end of time no matter what we do.... if you really think that staying in the middle east is actually keeping terrorism from happening.... your a retard.... we can police them all we want.... certain groups of people will still be able to get together and plan thing... besides..... not all terrorists come from Iraq.

war is won 3 ways,

beating them militarily,

beating them economically,

and beating them mentally,

the third is why the bombs dropped, japan would not have surrendered if we didn't do it, why is it we did it two times? we asked after the first, but they wouldn't budge, so we did it once more, if after that, they called out bluff, MANY more Marines ( and other allied forces ) life's would have been lost.

Moving on, I know you served, OK.... I JOINED because of it (OohH RAAA Marines!), and yes it was directed towards you, re-enlist, become an officer and run for office.




and GAM, a lot of good that did? last i heard, we won the "cold war" Regan did bankrupt them, after all.


One last note,

@!#$ the UN. if it didn't want us there.... um... so what. there a third party, and after 9/11, we could use the office space in NY.

your all correct, there will always be terrorist's, but we can do the very best not to look like a "soft target" (you remember anti-terrorism class's right?) also it sorta goes to show others that in-beding terrorist can come with a high cost, like getting your country over run, having Marines take vids at your palace, and then getting caught inside a hole next to a river.

the next target will be Iran, after all this is were most terrorist come from, and I'm all for it, actually, if we made both country's colonies of ours, COOL. one barrel of oil for one bushel of grain.

OR we become totally isolationists, say, the old Monroe doctrine. keep the Americas safe (we would have to deal with opec nations in south America though) and if someone does mess with us.... IDN, so maybe this wouldn't be a good idea.

thoughts?

Chris




"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taetsch: Nope, it's not a good idea.

Why?

SE asia and the middle east should have taught us that they fight dirty. REALLY dirty When was the last time we did; and I don't mean something in retrospect that was assholy. I mean in a case where we went above and beyond the "rules of war". Wa@!#$a? The American Revolution?

You're forgetting something very simple. You can't kill terror. You can't win a war against terrorism becaus ethere will ALWAYS be terrorism. The more you try to snuff it out the more terrorists it breeds. You're dealing with people that will sacrifice their lives to kill non-combatants. Thee american populace is not ready to accept that it's a target, and the US government is ill at ease to let them arm themselves.

To effectively fight terror means that you don't make yourself a target of terror--which means effectively...not pissing people off. Invadin Iran would piss of a whole hell of a lot of people, and us, fighting a conventional war, would be succumbed to the guerilla-like tactics of every pissed of middle eastern there is if we'd do so. The terroists know that targeting the populace hurts us, and will spread dissent among the populace as the government curttails more and more of our liberties to fight the phantom terroist threat.

Ideally, we get help to end iraq--even admitting we were wrong for going there in the first place, then do what we need to to lose dependence on OPEC, then we get the hell out of there. I guarentee you, that action will drastically limit terror attacks on us.

As I've said before, America made it's best strides when it was isolationist.

Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I agree, but I believe the way to "beat it" would be fight there own style, IE not having a problem shooting woman and children, and killing a whole lot of them. I for one have no problem shooting a 8 year old girl if I think she is a threat to my fire team.


I still don’t feel that we where wrong for going there, at the very least, now, the people can vote.

Chris



"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Quote:

I agree, but I believe the way to "beat it" would be fight there own style, IE not having a problem shooting woman and children, and killing a whole lot of them. I for one have no problem shooting a 8 year old girl if I think she is a threat to my fire team.

If someone is a treat to your life... even a 5 year old girl.... you take them out first... I agree with you on that...

I also agree that we can't fight a war on terror..... well... unless we become full out terrorist ourselves....

I've always said that the only way to efficiently win a war... is to go in guns blazing and kill everything in sight regardless of values or the laws of armed conflict..... I've never really understood how there can be "rules" to war...... it's war for Christs sakes... there arnt any rules... and the enemy sure as hell doesn't abide by our rules of war..... so how can we win.... when we're the only one playing by rules...

War is a terrible and and disparaging thing.... a lot of people die that shouldn't have needed to.... but that's the way war is... I really don't understand how we can affix morals to something that isn't based on morals even in the slightest..... if one day we saw a foreign military in our land killing our families and friends for no reason.... you would pick up a gun and start killing as many of them as you could.... civilian or not.... regardless if they where a threat or not... that would be what you would do.

War is terrible.... you can't add right or wrong to it... because there is only wrong and no right.... so if you expect to stand a chance.... you have to disregard ethics.... and commit evil... just as your enemy will be doing... 2 wrongs don't make a right.... but one right and one wrong don't even out either.... you cannot make the slaughter of lives justified.... but you have to except that you can only fight evil with evil..

Also... you cannot win or even fight a war against a non tangible thing like terrorism..... you can kill people..... but you can't kill an idea.

4/14/1972 USA New York, NY 1 3 Ten members of a local mosque phone in a false alarm and then ambush responding officers, killing one.
1/19/1973 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 1 Muslim extremists rob a sporting goods store for weapons, gunning down a police officer who responds to the alarm.
7/18/1973 USA Washington, DC 8 2 Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.
10/19/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.
10/29/1973 USA Berkeley, CA 1 0 A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.
11/25/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/11/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.
12/13/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/20/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.
12/22/1973 USA Oakland, CA 2 0 Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.
12/24/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.
1/24/1974 USA Oakland, CA 4 1 Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.
4/1/1974 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.
4/16/1974 USA Ingleside, CA 1 0 A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.
3/9/1977 USA Washington, DC 1 1 Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.
7/22/1980 USA Bethesda, MD 1 0 A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.
8/31/1980 USA Savou, IL 2 0 An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.
1/31/1990 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tucscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.
11/5/1990 USA New York City, NY 1 0 An Israeli rabbi is shot to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.
1/25/1993 USA Langley, VA 2 3 A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.
2/26/1993 USA New York, NY 6 1040 Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.
3/1/1994 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 0 A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.
3/23/1997 USA New York, NY 1 6 A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.
4/3/1997 USA Lompoc, CA 1 0 A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.
10/31/1999 USA Near Nantucket 217 0 An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.
3/17/2000 USA Atlanta, GA 1 1 A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.
9/11/2001 USA Shanksville, PA 40 0 Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.
9/11/2001 USA Washington, DC 184 53 Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
9/11/2001 USA New York, NY 2772 251 Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.
3/19/2002 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.
5/27/2002 USA Denton, TX 1 0 Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.
7/4/2002 USA Los Angeles, CA 2 0 Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.
9/5/2002 USA Clinton, MD 1 0 A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.
9/21/2002 USA Montgomery, AL 1 1 Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.
9/23/2002 USA Baton Rouge, LA 1 0 A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.
10/2/2002 USA Wheaton, MD 1 0 Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.
10/3/2002 USA Montgomery County, MD 5 0 Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.
10/9/2002 USA Manassas, VA 1 1 A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.
10/11/2002 USA Fredericksburg, VA 1 0 Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.
10/14/2002 USA Arlington, VA 1 0 A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.
10/22/2002 USA Aspen Hill, MD 1 0 A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.
8/6/2003 USA Houston, TX 1 0 After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.
12/2/2003 USA Chicago, IL 1 0 A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.
4/13/2004 USA Raleigh, NC 1 4 A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.
4/15/2004 USA Scottsville, NY 1 2 In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.
6/16/2006 USA Baltimore, MD 1 0 A 62-year-old Jewish moviegoer is shot to death by a Muslim gunman in an unprovoked terror attack.
6/25/2006 USA Denver, CO 1 5 Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.
7/28/2006 USA Seattle, WA 1 5 An 'angry' Muslim-American barges into a local Jewish center and shoots six women, one of whom dies.
10/6/2006 USA Louisville, KY 4 1 In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.
2/13/2007 USA Salt Lake City, UT 5 4 A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.
1/1/2008 USA Irving, TX 2 0 A Muslim immigrant shoots his two daughters to death on concerns about their 'Western' lifestyle.

(3,291 killed by Muslims in America in 60 terror attacks)


Maybe to "win" we should have our own "holey" war....

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

^^^ I'm not sure what you meant by that... if you mean we really should... or if it was a reason that we shouldn't through use of comparison.

This has gotten OT and when I posted my last post... I wasn't exactly sober (sorry) so I I'm not 100% sure how it sounded... I just meant to say that war sucks and you can't make it right.