Ok, since this appears to be the last weak link in the valvetrain... we've got cams, pushrods, valves, springs, keepers, retainers, etc... all covered pretty thoroughly, or being worked on...

So this ones for lifters. Outside of JBP, who sells them that fits the OHV? I remember HotRodV6 had ordered a set for 90 degree V6 (solid rollers i think) but they wound up being discontinued, and then he gave up on the cav project. I don't remember however if we confirmed that they did in fact fit or if he was buying a set to see if they would. I've since found several sources for 90 degree V6 lifters, most of what i'm finding are meant to be high-rev hydros, but at least its something. Also i found one or two sources for 3400 hi-perf lifters, and i'm wondering if those would work.

Now, i just remembered that i have a blowed-up 4.3L bottom end sitting in my garage from when my buddy was gonna rebuild it and put it in his S10... I ALSO have DaFlyinSkwirl's OHV engine here.... so if we need confirmation on the lifters, within a few weeks I can get a definite answer (the 4.3L is buried behind my junked old prelude and a lot of other misc. crap... but the prelude is gonna get junked soon so i'll be able to get to it).

I know that most people on here typically limit themselves to rods/pistons/bearings and the obvious stuff when doing their performance rebuilds for boost, but i figure there have to be a few guys out there with aftermarket lifters, or at least modified stock ones...

So lets get it going gents, what do we/don't we know about ohv lifters?




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

listening....

I'd really like to know what options I have other then JBP, otherwise the valvetrain (minus stainless valves) will remain stock/stock replacement.

heavy duty lifters (or lack there of) are what's preventing me from buying into a big turbo cam grind. Big Cam = Heavier springs = more force = seized lifters ... at least for the OHV, for right now.

juicedz4 had a solid set made for his car. I'm not sure where he had them done, but I know he did. Pics (yes they're big)-

anyone hear how those turned out?

I thought you couldn't do a solid converstion with a hydraulic roller lifter?

I could be way off, but I thought I heard right when I was told this...

We'll you're getting into something I've been working on! You do realize the 2.2 uses the same diameter lifter as the SBC. I've been looking into solid lifters without the link bar, or with removeable link bars. I found that Isky Cams has roller lifters that you have to get the link bars seperately. The link bars are simply a piece of stamped steel with two hole at the paticular center lines for the lifter bore spacing for the differnt motors.

One of the questions is which lifter woud we use, the standard hight liter or the tall, raised lifter bore lifters?
Another question is could they make the link bars at a reasonable price? If not, how much could we get some made for from an independant shop and is there a particular grade of steel needed?

As long as it's not too radical the stock core should be able to handle a mech roller grind.

I think this is something to get the Mechanical Roller cam fans going.

I think our best bet is just to get some SBC lifters and have the link bars modified.
Also, I though HotRod was getting some for a 60-degree...which ones did byron use?
As far as the solid lifters Juiced had made, I think we should focus on keeping roller lifters.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

what is the major drawback with JBP ho lifters? Is it that they collapse after so long? Is it possible to improve the inner spring, or upgrade it? I thought that's all JBP's were.

JBP's cost $$$, that's what is wrong with them I'm not sure of anybody actually running them...much less someone with an engine that the stockers couldn't handle.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

OHV notec wrote:I think our best bet is just to get some SBC lifters and have the link bars modified.

The lifters I'm talking about are SBC lifters, like I said though do we need the tall body, like the '87+ use, only mech roller, that clear the taller lifter bores, or the standard hight, like the pre '87s use?

OHV notec wrote:Also, I though HotRod was getting some for a 60-degree...which ones did byron use?

Byron used the left bank mech rollers from the 60-degree V6. HotRod was going to use them to, but Crane discontinued making them and wern't going to make any more, no/insufficiant profit in making them.

GM has been good about using similar dimensions on many parts, with the capability to easily convert those parts to other motors.

I think we should stay away from solid lifters if we're using them on a cam ground for hydraulic.

When I get a chance I'm going to measure up one of my old lifters to my buddy's SBC lifters, to see what they are like.

If things are a go we could have a nice upgrade on our hands life would be good !

which is exactly what you guys were saying all along

alright now for a newb question because i've never rebuilt a pushrod motor, so what is the purpose of the link bars? I had always assumed the lifters had their own individual bores that they went into, and that would be enough to control their orientation, so what are the link bars doing? Maybe if someone had a picture of the OHV lifter setup i could get a better idea...




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

The link bar keeps the lifter from rotating in the lifter bore. BTW the lifters are roller tipped which is why they are kept from rotating.

Here come another one of my long winded rants!

As mike said above, the link bars are used to keep the lifters from rotating in the bores. The rollers on the bottom only roll forwards or backwards. If a roller lifter were to turn sideways in the bore it would dig into the cam, destroying the cam, lifter, possibly even the liter bore in the block, ruining the block.

The stock motors use a plastic retainer, which holds two lifters and is bolted to the block, to prevent the lifter from rotating. Aftermarket hydraulic and mechanical lifters use a link bar that ties two lifters together and keeps them from rotating. That link bar must be the correct length to match the bore centers of the lifter bores and allow for the rise and fall fo the lifters on the lobe of the cam as the cam rotates.

The only other motor that used the same diameter lifter(.842") and lifter bore centers (1") was the 60-Degree V6's. Crane Cams was the last company to make mechanical lifters for the V6s, as I stated above. Most all of GM's major OHV motors used a .842" dia lifter, though most had different lifter bore centers. This is why there is an abundance of lifter types that will fit, flat or roller, hydraulic or mechanical. It's all a matter of getting a link bar that will fit on another roller lifter that doesn't have a permenently attached link bar.

As I stated above, the Isky Cams mech roller lifters use a seperate link bar on their lifters, but I have also found out that Comp Cams has a removeable link bar on their roller lifters.

The isky lifters use a U-shaped, open ended link bar, that fits onto their pivot point. The problem there is if the pushrod or rocker breaks the lifter could be lauched out of the lifter bore and the link bar could fall into the lifter bore and gouge the cam lobe, not good!

The Comp Cams lifter use a link bar that must be rotated 90 dgrees to be removed, so the lifter woud be reatined in the lifter bore. Although it might do alot of bouncing off the cam lobe, it would be less likely to do damage to the cam if their were to be any kind of valve train failure.

If you go to either of these companies web sites and browse though their catalogs, you'll see examples of their lifters and you'll get a better understanding of what I'm talking about.

Due to the depth of our lifter bores, I don't think any of the horizontal link bar lifters would work in our motors. I do believe you would have to use the vertical link bar lifters on our applications.

Whew, the end of another rant! (Maybe )

as usual the good technical threads like this have been pushed off the front page by CRAP, so i'm bringing it back... i was staring at lifters in the Jeg's catalog all day lol...

MadJack, good insights.... hopefully i'll have a chance to start tearing into the OHV soon. I'm thinking of a solid roller setup, since i'm trying to get the max out of it all motor, but i wouldn't recommend it for those still trying to run a stock ecu, as i'm sure it would drive the knock sensor crazy... won't matter much on a MSnS system though And since it'll pretty much be relegate to weekend track/fun duty, I can deal with the added maintenance concerns of periodic adjustment. My only REAL worry right now is the fact that Sunoco 94 is now no longer available in jersey, and i'm kind of afraid 93 will be next on the chopping block.... guess i'll need to use MS's dual maps, one tuned for pump, one for 100+ octane. But anyway now i'm getting off topic...




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

I thought that due to the profile of the cam, you are limited to only using hydraulic lifters. Can someone varify whether I'm right or not?

There are performance replacement lifters for the SBC w/ OEM roller. These lifters
come in hydraulic and solid flavor. They do not use link bars, but use a solid
"Double D" plate like the 2.2L. The largest obvious difference is the height
of the lifter. Buick 90 degree V6 engines also use .842" dia lifters. And there are
some performance lifters for these engines also. Again, they use the "Double D"
retainer when the engine uses OEM rollers. These lifters may or may not by different
than the Chevy lifter.

3 things need to be addressed to use the Chevy lifter in the OHV:

1) Lifter body height + maximum cam lift must not place the top of the lifter where part
of the block should be. The block could be ground away slightly if needed.

2) The oil feed hole in the side of the lifter and the groove around it must not extend
past the block at any time, either at full lift or at zero lift. If this happens a large leak would exist in the pressurized oil feed system.

3) The "Double D" retainer needs to have enough clearance to be fastened in the block.
At the minimum spacers would need to be installed beneath the retainer due to the
increased height of the SBC lifter.

For the guy doing machine work, lifter sleeves are available which could be used to
modify the block fo different lifters. But they're not an option for someone looking to
"plug n play" some lifters.

My advice, again, is to look into disassembling the OEM lifters and replacing the
checkvalve spring with a stiffer one, possibly from an inexpensive aftermarket
performance lifter. This is basically what GM did for the LT1 and LT4 engine. I use a
set of the V8 GM lifters to run to 6500-6800 "all day long" in a 350 ci roundy-round car
engine. I know of street cars with modified LT1's which are being run to 7k during
dragstrip passes. Our lifters and valvetrains are lighter, which only increases the rpm
potential of these lifters. A set of 16 of can be obtained from GM for about $200 as part
number 12371042. Split it with some friends, it's cheap. A little research and a few
phone calls leads me to believe GM is using the same lifter in all of the LS series
engines.

Icing on the cake: Pictures of changing the spring.

Here are the SBC and OHV lifters side by side. Notice the dark area in the center of the
lifter? This is where oil is allowed to feed the lifter. If this extends past the top of the block on full lift, it's possible that the pressurized oil in the lifter and cam feed galleys will suddenly be allowed to leak out the lifter bore. That's bad juju! Looks like it's real easy to do with the SBC lifter installed.

Here are 2 lifters taken apart, OHV on left and SBC on right. And the entire tool set
I used for the job.

Hmmm... any guesses which spring is the "performance" spring? The larger wire
diameter is the real clue.

OHV lifter reassembled with LT1 spring. LT1 lifter parts and OHV spring on right.

Here's another item of interest.
Look at the wear marks left by the OEM guide on the OHV lifter. The clean area indicates the current lifter travel.
You can clearly see there's not a bunch of travel available for additional lift. I don't have measuring tools here, but I'd guess the difference is around 1/8". It may be a good idea to add a shim under the lifter guides when increasing lift.
And a very important, often neglected step in the O'haul:

This is a tiny, tiny amount of the junk which came out of the OHV lifter I used. This lifter came from an engine that failed. The torque converter was installed wrong, which
pushed the crank against the thrust bearing. As the crank and bearing wore out, metal
was washed through the entire engine with lubricating oil. This caused the cam
bearings to fail, rod brgs, and main brgs to fail. All of the lifters have wear on the
outside of the bores. They're junk. Eventually the crank moved so far forward that the
timing chain wore a groove into the cover and the crank wore through the thrust bearing
into the block and main cap. And the shop that installed the trans kept telling the car
owner "it will be ok, just drive it." The point here is to disassemble and clean the lifters if they're going to be reused. Even a good, high mileage engine will accumulate some deposits inside the lifter.

I've got my lifters. Anybody wanna start selling "performance lifters" lke JBP?

-->Slow

anyway to compare the check valve spring tensions between the LT1 and the OHV?

what pressure springs are you using on that OHV ?

nice, Slow to the rescue with a fairly simple solution




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

Yeah, squeez 'em. I had to work like a bastahd to put the OHV lifter together. The difference in pressure is unquestionable. Since I'm not actually going to use that OHV lifter due to the wear I described, I took it back apart to reassemble the stock OHV and LT1 lifters (to keep track of the parts). I couldn't even put the LT1 lifter together. I didn't have a vice, so I finally gave up and put the @#$# thing in a plastic baggie in pieces.

I posted spring pressures in another post. I've been confined to the couch for a couple of months, can't remember the specs anymore. They may be similar to '67 Z28 springs. I'd search for the posts for ya but I've used up my "up time" today building lifters. Madjack or OHV Notec may remember the thread.

Gotta go lie down.

-->Slow

thanks for the info, at least now I've got something to go by

OHV notec wrote:JBP's cost $$$, that's what is wrong with them I'm not sure of anybody actually running them...much less someone with an engine that the stockers couldn't handle.

I am running the JBP lifters. Worth it? Hell if I know. I jut hope they work, lol. unlike the engine they built for me. I'm interested in any other upgrade options. That spring swap look likes an interesting option for an upgrade for anyone looking to rev higher. Or stand up to higher lift.

I can look at my lifers setup tomorrow and take some pics. Since I have the head off.

I also will have to take a look at the ware on the edge ince i have a higher lift cam, and check on the wear on the edge, there may not have been enought mile on the lifters to show any wear...I'll find out tomorrow.

^^^ Man, the s on my keyboard is not registering so bad. Sorry for some misspelling.

Thank you Slowolej, very informative post there! Which brings up a couple more points brought about by what you posted there.

It actually looks like we might be able to use the retro fit roller lifters after all. I'm still a little questionable about the horizontal link bars though, but the vertical link bars are up high enough that they wouldn't have any interference issues with the tops of the lifter bores.If there is any clearance issues, it would be with the side walls of the lifter valley and with the 3/8" pushrods. If you recall, Byron stated he had to clearance a very small amount from the link bar stanchions with the 3/8" pushrods. If you recall though, the Chevy Power Guide stated in the 2.0L section, that they recommended the 5/16" pushrods on their builds, which is the diameter the SBC lifters were designed for.

Next would be how lift is created. Contrary to what many believe, lift isn't generated by how high the cam lobe is, but by how low the base circle is ground on the lobe. remember the lobes of the cam can only be as large as the cam bearing journals diameter. The 2.2/2200 (and the 60deg V6) use the same diameter lobes as a SBC, which is 1.868". This is why the cam manufacturers can regrind a cam. While they barely remove any material from the points of max lift, the do remove a substantial amount from the base circle of the lobe. So the point here is the lifter won't rise up out of the lifter bore any higher, but would go lower down into the lifter bore when the lifter goes down to the base circle of the cam. This is why all the cam lobe profiles for our motors are duplicates of the SBC profiles. They literally use the same masters for our lobes.

Now, let's also recall that the limited amount of flow data that we've seen always indicates that most ported heads seem to max out around the .480"-.500" lift ranges. So what does this have to do with cams and lifters? We'll pretty much any amount of lift beyond this range is really just wasted lift. It doesn't mean you can't use a profile with more lift than this, just that you wouldn't see any significant increases if flow. Many of the cams with the duration you may need might only come with more lift than this, so you could be left with a profile like this for your application.

If you look through many of the cam manufacturers master lobe catalogs, you'll see that they most of them have some sort of "street", "quiet", "computer" and "low lift" profiles, for the SBC, that would work great with our motors. If you want to compare cam profile and their power ranges, just look at the SBC profile you're interested in, but remember, due to our smaller displacement, that profile's power band will move up about 400-500rpms. Because we use the same profiles as the SBC, we have the greatest number of profiles to choose from. From a low rpm high torque profile to the most extreme racing profile and everything in-between!!!

okay so i have to do is get some LT1 lifters take them aparts and put the springs in the my OHV lifters, right?

and then i will have JBP lifters?

i was reading through this awsome post and that is what i have come up with so far.

http://www.helpelijah.com