I've just finished my motor swap in my 2000 cav. swapped a 2000 2200 3spd out for a 2002 2200 4spd. Before swapping in the new engine, I installed my new cam, which was regrinded by crane. Now, car won't start. It sputters and backfires, and won't start. It's getting fuel, and has spark but it acts like the timing is off. When reinstalling the timing chain and gears, I followed my manual, and had the marks all lined up with the metal tab on the tensioner, while the engine was TDC with cylinder 1. Yet the car acts like a v8 with the distributor turned 180 degrees. I checked, and the cylinders are making compression, but it's firing at the wrong time. There isn't a way to set the timing on a 2.2 is there? Could there be a problem with the crankshaft or camshaft positioning sensor? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
http://jbok.org
check and make sure your plug wires are in the right spot. mismatched plug wires will cause firing order to be off, obviously. from there, work your way from crank angle sensor and the ICM.
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
i've tried 2 diff coil packs, one factory and one msd. also 2 sets of plug wires, which i checked. i wish that was all that it was. how do i check the crank angle sensor?
i took both the camshaft and crankshaft positioning sensor out of my spare 2200 to see how they work. but i don't see a way to check them.
thanks for the help!
http://jbok.org
Randall, got your e-mail. I actually saw this post this morning, but had to get to an appointment. First of all did you use the PCM from the new motor? It's needed to get the engine and tranny to sync with each other, since the tranny is electronically controlled, as opposed to mechanically controled on the 3 sp.
Anyways,....
This sounds very familiar. I had the same symptoms when I rebuilt my motor. I spent quite a while being very maticulous in my engine assembly, ensuring all my clearances were correct, torque specs on the money, but when I got to the outside assembly I got impatient and thats what got me.
What I thought was the correct timming, was actually one tooth off. I visually lined up the tabs, but I guess my astigmatism in my right eye must have thrown me off. I went back and used a straight edge to line up the centerlines of the crank, cam, cam gear timming hole and crank timming dot and found I was one tooth off! Maybe I should have wore my glasses!
That was just one problem.
My wires from the coils were done backwards. The Haynes manual shows the coil packs upside down, in my haste, I read them as the if the coils were orientated that way, when it's a flip-up diagram, ie rotate the engine over. After getting that straight, it still wouldn't fire over, though it sounded better.
While conducting a compression check, I had a fountain of gasoline shoot out of cylinder # 3. As it turned out, the injector had sized open, constantly spraying gas. I ended up having to replace that injector and change the oil, sinc all the extra gas drained down into the oil pan (wouldn't that have been fun if it ignited!) To check for injector operation, use a mechanics stethiscoope or a scewdriver to listen for the injector ticking (sounds like a stopwatch on speed) as someone trys to start the engine.
If your using a roller rocker conversion, double check the valve lash. Run a compression check, to make sure all cylinders are within 10% of each other. This is to ensure you dont have a bad lifter or cam lobe.
Hope these have helped, let me know how it turns out.
Now back to my little one, whos home on Spring Break.
should've got the jbp cam.
Twice as much for a cam with approximately the same powerband? In fact the JBP cam probably makes less low end torque than mine does. With the longer exhaust duration, which isn't needed on our motors, because the I/E ratios are ideal to begin with. Thats why the stock cams use a symmetrical profiles on the intake and exhaust lobes. If you runn a P&Ped head and a header back exhaust, the problem is compounded.
And if it's a regrind your worried about, from what I'm seeing on the JBP site, They are doing regrinds also.
JBP camshaft core charge.
Thanks for the info Jack. I'm out to check my injectors/plug wires, but in the end, i'll probably be tearing the timing chain cover back off to check it again
i'll let you know what i find
http://jbok.org
ok injectors check out good. spark plug wires are in the right places. sensors are working ok. would having the camshaft gear off one tooth cause it to backfire and not want to start? guess this weekend i'll try to pull the timing chain cover back off while leaving the motor in the car.
btw, jack is right. my cam regrind is very similar to the jbody performance stage 2 cam, but has a lil better powerband. but that has nothing to do with why the car won't start
http://jbok.org
Yeah, when I was mentioning the timming being off one tooth, thats what I was having. When it was my injector, it would start, sputter then die.
Henry Mac wrote:should've got the jbp cam.
wow, every day sets a new record for "most retarded thing i ever heard" on this board.... because JBP now has more experience and cam grinding knowledge than Crane?
Anyway, sounds like you're off a tooth to me as well... We used to get a lot of that when i worked for dodge, engines where either the timing belt jumped and it would do exactly what you're describing, or where the tech made an "oops" when he had it all back together.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Crank sensor is usually checked 3 ways.
1) visually, for cracks in the body.
2) With an ohmmeter, for correct resistance.
3)With an oscilloscope or DVOM while the engine is cranking, to make sure there's a signal from it.
It's cheap to buy, and sometimes a tech will replace it (not that it's the right way) rather than spend time testing beyond #1 and #2.
-->Slow
Glad my old 2200, tranny, and cam are going to good use Randal. Now get it done in time for dyno day!
Jack you were right. Got the timing chain cover off today, and realigned everything. She starts beautifully now, and has a nice lil lope to her
http://jbok.org
Jack to the rescue. Good job Red, now get 'er on the dyno so we can see what that powerband looks like. Which grind did you go with anyway?
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Glad I could help. Like I said, that souded like what I had, except for my additional problems, that just compounded what I went through.
Cammed ohv...mmmm.......drool......where is the sound clip? lol
I need to find some one with a video camera, otherwise I'd have one up by now.
OHV notec, here's the grind i got:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3351/regrind9uq.jpg
MadJack, did you get any codes after your build? I'm getting one....P0300 - Random misfire detected on multiple cylinders. The CEL comes and goes tho. It'll be on a couple days, then it'll be off a day or so. You think this could be from the cam? It seems to run fine, and pulls like mad from 3000rpm+
And I'll try to get a sound clip of mine today when i get home from work if my digi cam will take a good one
http://jbok.org
Red98 thats the same cam that OHV notec has. That's the HR-206/313-12, 206 deg duration @.050, .313" lobe lift(.470" @ valve w/ 1.5 rockers or .501" @ valve w/ 1.6 rockers) and a lobe seperation angle(LSA) of 212 deg. With this cam I hope your running 1.5:1 rockers, or changed your valvesprings, locks and retainers, otherwise you will probably run into valve train problems. As I've stated before, do you really want to risk your valvetrain on manufacturing innaccuracies?
You say it pulls hard from 3000+, thats about right for that cam. With its tighter LSA and two degrees less duration it should pull hard in the mid ranges, peak the torque higher and ealier and tapper off as it goes higher up in the rpms. My grind (HR-208/292-14) with the 1.6 rockers, has a little more duration and valve lift and a wider LSA. My torque band builds a little slower, doesn't peak quite as high, but revs a little higher and has a broader torque band. Mine power gradually starts around 3400 and holds on allthe way to the shift point, about 5600 rpms. My torque band is better suited to the 3sp and it's wider gear ratios, now I just need a TC that is better suited to my powerband. A TC in the 2600-2800 rpm range should do you real well.
When I finally got everything set-up correctly, I threw no codes, as far as the engine is concerned. I do get a couple codes from time to time, P0440-EVAP Syetem(yes, I replaced the gas cap)and P1870-Transmission TCC slippage.
As for the CEL, I see you have a 59mm TB, Your loosing intake air velocity with a TB that big. Combine that with the tighter LSA and more duration, your loosing a fair amount of vacum. Try the 56mm 2.3 TB conversion, this would probably bring back enough vacum for a cleaner burn at idle and low rpms, along with a little more throttle response and low end torque.
damn Jack your the 2200 performance king lol. Yeah I'm still using stock valve train for now. I'd like to get upgrade it, but due to the same problems phlatcav ran into, I can't. He purchased all the jbp valve train parts, and realized that the valves wouldn't work the rockers, and a bunch of other valve train problems, so i just left most of it stock for now. What did you go with?
Also, my next purchase will be a 2800 stall. I shoulda bought one and installed it before i dropped the motor in, but oh well. I don't think it'd be too hard to do later. I had a 3spd in the car, but there was something messed up in it that made my gas pedal really really stiff. and no it wasn't the tv cable itself. i'm happy with the 4t40e upgrade tho. It just needs a better OD gear
As for the 59mm throttle body, your probably right. I have a friend with a 2.3 quad4 tb so i might get it from him to try out. I'm installing nitrous this weekend, and plan to run a 75 wet shot, so I might stick with the 59mm. what do ya think?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
http://jbok.org
Red98 wrote:damn Jack your the 2200 performance king lol. Yeah I'm still using stock valve train for now. I'd like to get upgrade it, but due to the same problems phlatcav ran into, I can't. He purchased all the jbp valve train parts, and realized that the valves wouldn't work the rockers, and a bunch of other valve train problems, so i just left most of it stock for now. What did you go with?
IDK about being the "king," there are others, such as Event, OHV notec, slowolej and others that I've learned alot form and working with.
I've got a '96 2.2, w/ the Crane self-aligning rockers and stock springs. The springs are old and sometimes, @ WOT, I get some mild valve float. I probably could have gotten a set of new stock replacement springs, but I don't want to rick run into my springs losing free length from being push too hard and having to replace them again. Also, it will help those who might want to run a more radical cam, and their foot work will have been done for them.
Red98 wrote:Also, my next purchase will be a 2800 stall. I shoulda bought one and installed it before i dropped the motor in, but oh well. I don't think it'd be too hard to do later. I had a 3spd in the car, but there was something messed up in it that made my gas pedal really really stiff. and no it wasn't the tv cable itself. i'm happy with the 4t40e upgrade tho. It just needs a better OD gear
The TC won't do anything for the OD, but I bet you'll be pleasantly supprised by the differenc it makes on take off. If you want more OD, you would have to change the final drive, but you'ld be loosing the torque that gets you off the line. On my old S-10(RIP), I did change the 5th gear out of a Camero and that work great. You might look into changing the 4th gear, if you know what to look for and can do a rebuild, otherwise you might want to keep what you've got.
Red98 wrote:As for the 59mm throttle body, your probably right. I have a friend with a 2.3 quad4 tb so i might get it from him to try out. I'm installing nitrous this weekend, and plan to run a 75 wet shot, so I might stick with the 59mm. what do ya think?
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
The 59mm TB will probably be good on the nitrous, but you'll still have the same problem N/A. A 56mm TB on the nitrous will still be good, but you won't have the problems N/A.
