well i called around today and got some prices. should they have a flowbench to make sure all are the same or does it not matter? the guy i talked to sounded like he accually knew about the 2200 head also so im thinkin of doin it locally now. i can get a head around here for 150 and the guy said he has like 4 different P&P levels and ill either get the 400 or 500 one plus some oversized valves. is it better to have it done locally? i was gonna get the patriot stage 2 from hypsy but if anything goes wrong here i can get it fixed quick.


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ALWAYS make sure they have a flow bench, there is no human eye that can match all runners to flow the same. find out exactly what your getting for your prices, ask to take a look around the shop they may not like it but usually local gear heads dont mind to much. ask them about previous engines they've helped port and polish, if you can find a couple local guys that have had work done and liked the results you'll feel better about it overall.


Now i'm curious what questions did he ask you? did they ask what the engine was being built for? what rpm range you wanted to run in? if you were thinking of running boost or nitrous? or any performance related questions?

a good head porter will ask you very specific questions, not just tell you prices and stages they port in, also do not let prices be a factor in your decision, if you know a guy does good work but charges alittle more theres probably a very good reason dont skimp in this area.



J~

why take a look around the shop?

should i ask him what his process is for doin all of it?

i told him it would be for turbo later he just said that any of them would help, then i asked him what would be too much and he didnt really know cuz there prolly not one that is overdoing it.

just called him not a minute ago and they said they had a flowbench so thats good to go

as for the asking specific questions not many people have turbo around here and everyone just gets their v8 heads done so he probly wouldnt ask many questions. not a very big city either. one of the kids i go to school with had his head done at O'Riely's Autoparts i dont think i wanna stoop that low to get the job done.


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As long as they have a flowbench and guarantee their work, I would have it done locally.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

whats a good flow number to have for a 2200 head?


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Here's what Patriot Performance had posted about their Stage I head:

Patriot Performance wrote:Stage I Heads

5 Axis CNC Ported
OEM Valvetrain
3 Angle Valvejob
1020 Superflow Bench 3.530 Bore

Lift ______1.73" Intake Valve_____1.45" Exhaust Valve

.050".........43 cfm.................27 cfm

.100".........72 cfm.................50 cfm

.150".........99 cfm.................75 cfm

.200"........125 cfm.................95 cfm

.250"........145 cfm.................112 cfm

.300"........165 cfm.................124 cfm

.350"........179 cfm.................139 cfm

.400"........192 cfm.................151 cfm

.450"........202 cfm.................156 cfm

I'm working on some more info, if available, including the stock flow numbers to go in a new thread.

so those are pretty good numbers im guessin?

someone awhile ago had their stock head benchflowed i cant remember the numbers but if needed ill go buy one and have the guy at the shop do it for a stock head. haveta buy one anyways so might as well do that


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also can someone post a pic on here of the bottom of a 2200 head i wanna make sure i get the right one since the holes are different from the 2.2?


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My major concerns with someone local would be the quality of work, if someone gets ahold of your head that doesnt know what they are doing they can do serious damage to your engine, every application will require something alittle different.

In general a P&P job is pretty standard, but i have read and heard stories of guys getting their work done, throwing the head back on the car and it runs like total crap due to someone taking out to much material or knocking down and edge they shouldnt have, the flow bench will tell you this very quickly because once the casting marks are removed and the corners smoothed out your numbers will go up and up on the bench, once those numbers start to stop making big jumps its usually a good idea to stop.

I would avoid any chain of autoparts stores, autozone or oreilys isnt exactly known for hiring the best and brightest in the feild.

but like i said in general any improvements will help, i tend to be cautious with people who dont fully understand my specific application.

Every engine has its likes and dislikes in regards to performance and someone whos worked with your engine before will have a working knowledge of what can make improvements here and there rather than trial and error on your parts.

MAKE SURE THEY FLOW YOUR HEAD WITH THE HEADER AND INTAKE ON THE HEAD these items will change the flow, just because the head by itself flows 200cfm doesnt mean it can do that with your intake and exhaust bolted on, the only way to build a a really good flowing head is to flow all links in the chain not just the head, seeing as your actually tuning the engine to the intake and exhausts flows with this method you will get the biggest rewards from this method. I have a good article on things to look for in a head porting shop let me look around and i'll post it on here.

J~

20 basic tech questions on Cylinder head porting

The first 5 questions involve alot of basic info so i will skip around alittle as i'm sure anyone reading this has at least an idea of what head porting is.

Now for the questions involving what you should ask your head porter

1. How much does it cost?
This is an obvious question, but some porters charge more than others and the type of head in question can also affect pricing. For example, port matching only, costs less than matching and chamber work. Prices vary, but remember you get what you pay for.

2. What services do i get for my money?
Do you deliver a bare head? Does the price inlcude the porter delivering a completely assembled head back to you? Is the valve job part of the price? The price quote includes only labor costs. Any upgraded components (valves, valvesprings,etc.) are an additional charge to you.

3.What is your specialty?
Work with a head porter who is familiar with the idiosyncrasies of your application. A 300zx specialist should know that the casting shifts in the water jacket area affects the number three cylinder. A Honda specialist should know to not alter the intake port angle or a B18 or the exhaust port angle of a B16 because they flow perfectly from the factory. A suburu guy should know that bigger valves aren't the right call on EJ20s because there's little room between the valve seats to accommodate bigger units without eventually cracking the valve seal.

4.Do you flow bench the heads you work on?
Port flow Designs Tom Fujita says he's often asked, "How much power will the head make?" He doesn't qoute power gains becahse engines tuners make the power, head porters deal in airflow only. Flow bench testing is performed before and after the work and the cfm numbers illustrate the improvments in flow attained by the porter. It's also important to know what lift (.050) the valves are at during testing.

Now the questions a good head porter should ask you.

5. Is it an all-motor or forced induction engine?
Flow characteristics of these two motors are very different,and their operating characteristisics will have an impact on the porting strategies used on the head. Fujita says he widens the 45-degree cut on valve jobs for forced induction motors to get a better seal in a pressurized enviroment and the added contact area pulls heat out of the valve.

6. How much boost is the turbocharged or supercharged engine making?
The pressure and volume of air forced into the engine is key to the ported head's performance.

7. What kind of cam are you running?
Cams run the airflow show. they open and close the valves,and their lift and duration controls the flow of air in and out of the engine. The valve overlap of the cam is also a major consideration.

8. What are the spring retainer specs?
Some retainers are designed to be recessed,which affects the size of the spring being used and when it will bind.

9.What is current/desired compression ratio?
Combustion chamber work can be an opportunity to alter the compression ratio. Removing material lowers the compression ration while welding in material is a way to increase the compression ratio.

10.What do you intend to use this vehicle for, Street or Strip?
This question will give the porter info he needs regarding the expected powerband of the engine, how fast the engine will be asked to turn and other important clues to creating a head that delivers on its power promise. It's also another opportunity to gauge the enthusiast's commitment and ensure the proper valvetrain parts are being used.

11.Will a factory intake gasket or a custom setup be used?
This info is needed to properly port-match the head and intake manifold

Excerpts borrowed from a December 2003 issue of Turbo magazines article 20 Basic tech questions on Head porting.

J~

wel i dont have an extra header and intake mani so that sux. ill tell him to do the best one to take the most possible material out without it being too much since ill have forced induction. ill have the oversized valves put in it. i guess ill be running te stock cam since it good enough already. be usin it for street and strip so yea.

what else should i consider?


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Err, what if you're intake is a GM S/C. I'm not gonna just hand that to a shop.

the most a shop would need is the actual intake portion to flow match the intake and the head to acheive peak effeicency within the 2.

If you spend your money on a port and polish and larger valves why are you using the stock cam? you can get a very nice regrind from crane for 150-200 from what i've been hearing on the boards, a cam will give you the best results for your grind, especially when you go with a forced induction setup.

Think about it like this, lets say the doors in your house are 12" wide and 5 feet tall, now if you make the door 6 foot tall and leave it 12" wide have you really gained anything? i mean sure in theory you can fit more things thru the door but its still not much improvement is it?



J~

We're doing a similar thing with our 2.2 ohv, problem is we can't do the port/polish till i get ready to boost. I was going to do an all motor build, but for the high compression we'd have to run on race gas.

Honestly, to get the most power out of a motor you have to make some decisions. Build just for track, or street/strip.

In general, i'm building for street/strip/show. So my target hp is about 250 with boost. Will i hit it, depends on my set up but i'm not looking for any more than that simply because the stresses the motor will have to take and the trans above 250.

Does anybody know what the stock block, head, transmission can take as far as hp/torque?

so would doing this locally be better then buying the patriot head?


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C Smyth wrote:Does anybody know what the stock block, head, transmission can take as far as hp/torque?

250 to the wheels has been done on the stock engine and Isuzu tranny...the weakest.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

yes no worth it? i know patriots pretty reputable but ....


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IMO, the bare LN2 head from PP is cheap enough that I'd probably just get that instead of paying a local shop that isn't familiar with the engine. Normally a good CNC'ed head will outflow one put out by your run-of-the-mill machine shop. If they're not charging more than the CNC'ed head, you're most likely not getting a professional quality job. It's hard to imagine how much time you have to put into a head to do all this work, and at a $80/hr shop charge, you should be paying $800+ for quality. I put 20+ hrs into my V6 heads, and I still wasn't completely satisfied with how they turned out.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I've been in contact with Patriot Performance concerning the heads for the 2.2L and 2200 motors. I'm awaiting some details from them and I will be writing a post about the heads, if I get the info I'm looking for. Let's put it this way, they have to find all the info I'm looking for! It should be good!

You ever get that info? Anyone know what pressure drop Patriot uses when flowing their heads?



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I never heard anything from them, even after a few e-mails.

Aside from the valve train weaknesses(stock replacement parts used on the 2.2/2200) and the one stripped spark plug thread, I've never head anything bad about their heads. My machinist has nothing but good things to say about the work on their heads.

Now if they could do something about the customer service....

Yea that would be me with the stripped sparkplug threads. but yea, they dont have a Stage 2 Dillon, i ordered that originally for a hundred more dollars, got the thing, had to send it back to them about the spark plug hole and told them to put the bigger valves in it. After they got it they finally told me they couldnt put bigger valves in it. So i told them we would work out getting my money back after i got the head on and see how it performed. I did the Crane Rocker arm conversion right with that, and it was some real good mid and high range power, but I still havent seen a penny back from them and It's not Hypsy's fault so...Bottom Line, would i buy from them again? Yes, good stuff. Would I recommend spending $700+ for a "stage 2" absolutely not. Dillon if youve got more questions, and i do have a picture of the bottom of my stock 2200 head, you can email me.

I forgot about this earlier, JuicedZ4 has a flow chart on his head, which he had ported.

JucedZ4's Head Flow Graph!