Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way) - First Generation Forum

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Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Friday, November 25, 2011 6:45 AM
So I was here scratching my head on Turkey day, having spent a few hours trying my best to combat yet another visit of the Rust Gremlins just in time for the cold of winter..... I thought I'd sound off on a post while I had a little time on my hands...
My local NAPA informed me that as of the end of the year,they will no longer be able to sell me any kind of custom mixed automotive paint, and will only be able to sell water borne paint to folks EPA certified, come the first of the year. Here in the wonderful "Commonwealth" of Virginia, our state legislators have decided to appease the federal EPA,somewhat prematurely. See, the EPA has decided that conventional automotive paints are too toxic, and starting around 2014 all use of the oil based stuff will basically be banned. In its place will be the "green" alternative - water borne spray paint. This stuff requires very warm temps to cure so the water will evaporate properly, not to mention adequate ventilation. The final nail in the coffin is the requirement of an "EPA" certified paint booth with both a barrier to prevent stray vapors escaping, and "proper" intakes & exhausts to allow filtration before venting to the atmosphere your neighbors backyard. It all adds up the prohibition of the backyard and garage user from painting his or her favorite ride in their spare time. I read a bit on the subject, and it would seem professional auto paint shops were whining of some Joes out there renting a garage here and there, working under the table patching up rides for the cheap , undercutting the professional Jacks out there that had invested their life savings into a top grade auto grade, EPA certified body shop. While the pros had to file proper paperwork of all those toxic materials used from cradle to grave, the Joes dodged even the most basic regulations. So after years of complaints, and of course lots of money and lobbying it finally got shuffled around to the EPA that is so well known for its proper ways of doing business!
So here I set in Virginia , an earlybird state converting over to the new regs. I just so happen to live a half hours driving time to the West Virginia state line, a state, that hasn't yet done the deed to be so green that our state has. Sure, I could slip over the line and drive back with a few precious cans of the good stuff. Yet, in the day and age of modern electronics, it wouldn't be hard at all for some out of work sap, bored and looking for something to do, or trouble to start, could carefully place the lens of their $49.95 digital camcorder to a crack in my old rented wooden garage to capture forever my tales of woe. Alas, I'd eventually wind up paying the piper along with a truckload of penalties, and of course some interest.
Now what all of this boils down to , is the classic case of the "haves" and the "have nots" , the real "Mc Coys" and the "Wannabees".
Either you have $6 grand and drive your ride to the local Pro Shop, maybe $4 grand and a trailer to pull your partially stripped, and sanded ride, again to the local Pro Shop.......or, alas you don't. Personally, I think that unless you got a very decent auto with just a few problems, going to a discount paint shop like Earl Scheib is just a bad idea. They will just cover up the problems and you'll have them revisiting soon. So, what is a poor Jo like myself left with? The EPA in their wonderful form of justice, has decided, that oil based paints that are brushed are still "safe" as well as, get this, "non refillable metal single use dispensers" ...aka, the venerable rattle can.
So here I get to the core of my post. After agonizing for months, having rattle canned my wagon in 2007 just to see the rust gremlin laugh at me 12 months later, I decide its time to experiment. Perhaps , my thinking goes, it might be possible to brush on some enamel and later, block sand it down to a manageable degree, as so to prime and get a somewhat decent color coat of something from the shelves that Advance Auto has to offer. Hopefully , the enamel will provide a thick barrier to help hamper the rust gremlin , and allow for a thin coat of metallic color to dance in the sun. So far I've found the Acrylic Lacquer in those rattle cans don't rub elbows with the enamel , I've got some work yet to do. So it's practicality first. I've got rust, and I'm brushing on rust converter and following with a can of enamel.
Now I know I'll get a flood of angst , and to your credit, I used to be a perfectionist myself. If it wasn't going to look at least Damn good I wasn't going to waste my time and money. But, alas, the times have changed. We've been in a hard recession for a long time now, and necessity , it goes, is the mother of invention. This ole' country boy is just a janitor at a floundering factory, which is basically surviving by buying and selling cheap Chinese crap we are all so tired of. We haven't seen a raise in the past 7 years, and a full 40 hour work week is more an exception then that of a rule. It would be far easier if I could afford it to just get a better machine in better condition, yet I've driven this venerable 1st gen nearly every week for the past 9 years. She's an old friend now, and still starts up faithfully and drives with confidence...something these newer machines with their multi-cam hearts and overly electronic-controlled souls just cannot provide.We live near a nasty paper mill that for decades has spewed out nasty substances the EPA manages to turn a finer eye to than the few fumes a gallon of paint can muster. This plant is famous for wearing down the horizontal surfaces of any autos paint unfortunate to be parked near enough to that foul mill.
So this posting is mainly meant to inspire any other of those "wanabees" out there like myself. You are not alone, and if you care to post here, please be only too kind to do so. This great country was founded by great people thinking different ways, and doing different things. There are always alternatives, and "Difficult" does not necessarily imply "impossibility"!! I honestly found great freedom and joy upon releasing myself for the bonds of perfection, but, I think sometimes it is the sting of the others criticism that we fear the most.
Thanks to the friends here in 1st gen land that have found the time to read my thoughts.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Friday, November 25, 2011 8:30 AM

Enjoyed reading your position.

And I thought we were having all the fun with emissions in the auto industry. GM and others I am sure are having a real *fun* time with the emissions and Green House Gas (GHG) requirements that are being rolled out. We have Federal (EPA) and California (CARB) that we have to keep happy, as well as Transport Canada. I work for a supplier to GM at their Milford Proving Grounds facility. It seems like they are trying to get cars down to nothing while they are letting coal keep going... Where do they think all of our electricity comes from - the elctricity needed to power all of these future electric cars? So we fix the whole auto industry (manufacture and aftermarket - including your paint dilemma) only to burn it up by developing the Tar Sands and continuing to raise the global temp. Something seem wrong with this picture? Seems like we should be making a deal with China and India on emissions and call it good - we are the largest producers and consumers.

Back to cars, first removal all of real "hot-tank" capabilities, then paint regulation, what is next for our hobby? I am almost expecting the words in the popular Rush song "Red Barchetta" to come true in our's or our children's life times - "before the motor ban...." Time and politics will tell.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Friday, November 25, 2011 6:52 PM
Well, Paul, I think the truth is the oil & coal industry has a lot more money to throw at the lobbyist than the auto industry does. As always, money does the talking. I had thought California had agreed to work along the lines with the feds regarding regs, I remember there was something about trying to make it easier to manufacture and sell autos in North America. At any rate,tho,I just knew there was trouble when the EPA added CO2 as dangerous substance and can be regulated. I bet GM is shaking in their shoes over those battery fires cropping up. It shouldn't be a surprise , with cell phones and lap tops lighting up. ... and they weren't being crash tested! I don't have much faith in those battery power cars. Cordless Drills....Cell Phones...Laptops...ect..they all go down in time. When they do, they all sit charging all the time and never hold that charge, Cars going to be the same way...I hate to see the wasted KW years from now from all those dead batteries charging! All we can do is try to enjoy what we've got while we still can , I guess.

Well, here is a couple of picts as I suck it up and lay it on instead of spray it on
Here I'm applying rust converter

And here I'm...well know

I've been on top of this wagon many times, and it's a lot of area to be working on every time, but it seemed to be easier to brush on then hours and hours of extensive prep,taping off,covering up and spray, spray, spray. The results seem decent if only at least till spring time comes back around.

Here is a couple of picts of a neighbors cars suffering from that paper mill top rot I was talking about, this is what I'm trying to fight

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Friday, November 25, 2011 8:42 PM
Idk where to start.Tired today after 527 miles of driving.SO super short epa is joke,and changing the rules ot so called make the air better is complete(@#!$%^& it.)My sinuses are kicking me today ironically but not due to crap outside.Good luck on your paint work.Running on two cyldrs myself and need some sleep.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Saturday, November 26, 2011 6:52 AM
"Hawlin' Fr8T" is a lot tougher job than folks give credit for. You try to be careful out there, 'cause people are already careless, but the holiday seasons really bring the idiot out of some of them. Just on the heels is nasty winter weather too.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:14 AM
Well, here is the result. Considering I'm dealing with $13 quart of paint and a $7 Paintbrush, it could have been far worse. I guess since I'm a janitor, and have stripped and waxed a lot of floors, If you can lay down just the right amount of sealer and wax it'll look like a million bucks. This is kinda like that. I've learned to do this in the garage, and keep it warm - (I burned up around 15 bucks of kerosene in the process...LOL) Also buy a good paint brush, - you use a $1 paint brush, you gonna have a $1 result. Take your time. I stopped and took a lunch break in between - (LOL, as if I need one :-O) Since you are laying down a lot more quantity of paint then during a spray, this method tends to hide a lot of more sins, as the paint fills them up. I still got some issues the the front portion of the top. Have had a terrible time with orange peel in that area for some reason. If I have to, I can take it all the way down next year.
The goal was to get decent coverage to protect the top this winter, and hopefully not look terribly gaudy in the process. I think I managed to do that. Here's a few picts....

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Saturday, November 26, 2011 8:58 AM

Looks great. I have seen the "paper mill" effect on a few cars - I didn't know it had a name .

So much nasty fallout around.

The job looks solid - definately looks good and keeps it together for another year or service.

Thanks for the pics.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Saturday, November 26, 2011 4:08 PM
Thanks Paul! Here is an old pict I found of my old wagon years ago before I jumped in and started fixing it up. Thought some might like to see...

I remember those center caps didn't fit the wheels I had at the time, they clacked like horse hoofs going down the road. Eventually they wobbled out all but fell off. Over the years I've managed to match up the right wheels and caps.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, November 27, 2011 6:40 AM
Funny thing about that waterbourne paint, some shops prefer not too use it . When it first came out about 10yrs ago I was a driver for a auto body paint store, they converted a few shops to the new then ppg waterbourne paint. they sold them new paint, primer etc..., spray guns, shelves for the new paint, the whole shebang only to have them call back in a month hating it and wanting their old stuff back lmao of course since it was all in the garbage they bought oil based stuff from the competitors and the store I worked at shut it's doors after losing quite alot of business from that debacle and the salesman making booty calls instead of selling paint.
That looks good Orlen , I've been thinking about trying to paint my cavy with Por 15 myself with the way the local city dumps salt on the road. If that wasn't bad enough while awaiting some fixing up @ my dads my cavy has suffered the indignity of having the rockers below the doors eaten off by some stupid mutts, although apparently dogs can't handle a little extra 'iron' in their diet as one died and another got sick.

Here's a 2nd gen that's been roller painted

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:54 AM

Spike J you have inspired and humbled me at the same time. I Love learning new things and from what I see there are a lot of wonderful folks out there leading the way! Guess I was stumbling along on the wrong forum LOL. Thanks so much for the input and the link!! :-) I'm sure I'll have a ball looking through here!! I really liked the repainted Cav!!

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, November 27, 2011 11:53 AM
Here's a Hot Rod article The $98 Paint Job

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:49 PM
Thank You again, Spike!! Really enjoyed that :-) Bookmarked both of them , I'll be looking at them a lot thru the winter.

I guess the body shops won't be having the luxury of going back as the EPA regs bear down. I've heard a little bit about the Por 15. One of the debacles I had with it was that it seems you can use it straight on rusted areas, while a special primer is needed on good metal. My rides suffer from a mix of both, so, it would seem I'd might be masking off the rusted areas to prime...LoL. I don't know if a brush or roller can be used with it or not. I was told it is pretty dangerous stuff thoand expensive - about $40/quart. If you do give it a try, I'd love to see the progress!! Those dogs sound like they had a little bit of goat in them, at least that's some metal you don't have to cut away to start the restro!!

Thanks again for the info!!

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:57 PM
Paint looks good Orlen!
If we just look at the state and federal regs we can see why we have no jobs here in the U.S. Why manufacture products here in the U.S. if you can move to Mexico and not have to buy expensive equipment to just open your doors and hire people. The great Commonwealth of Massachusetts has put all kinds of small businesses out of business with the dumb @%% rules and taxes. Well enough of the rants. But I painted two of my buddies 1 ton 80's Chevy dump trucks with a fine foam roller back in the early 2000's and they looked pretty good. And he got a good 3 years of winter plowing and summer pavement seal coating work out of the paint jobs.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Monday, November 28, 2011 9:19 AM
Nice pics John!

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Monday, November 28, 2011 5:52 PM
Yep,John, makes you wonder if Rome went down this way, doesn't it? I don't think we have to worry about being a superpower much longer stabbing ourselves in the back. Also, you hit the nail on the head, durability is what I need first, like your Dumpers!
I'd like to thank everyone for the information, testimonials , links, and positive feedback!! :-) 3 Cheers to all of you!! I never expected so much. I've got a lot of studying to do, but it is nearly winter time, and I got some time to do it!!
Right now, I'm pondering just a simple glossy base instead of trying to cover all that up with the rattle cans - they are so expensive and it is going to be so much more complicated too.. I can spend far less on a variety of different colors in enamel and have a lot of paint to work with. Back in the '70's everyone wanted the metal flake because it wasn't very common. Now, it seams most cars are the other way around, unless you get black, white, or red. I can 2 tone these and have something a bit different in the process. The simple Sunbird coupe stands out here already , cause it is the only one I've seen for awhile.... years ago they were everywhere!
For now I'm going to soak all this in and daydream about the color combos for awhile.

Thanks again everyone!!

Yep, Paul, Johns' 2 Cav Rags are just gorgeous next to each other, aren't they!! Your Red Chili Pepper is awsome too, and so is "Sunny" How's your back end R&R going?

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Monday, November 28, 2011 8:28 PM
Resto work probably start next wk.Went junkyarding today,my eyes glazed over like a doughnut when I found a exact match window sweep in stupid solid condition(off a 94bird).Still got get a safety inspection too,before work starts.At least I have the parts.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:22 AM
Glad you found one, these hard to find parts only get harder to find. Kinda surprises me as many J-Bodies were built there isn't a someone out there making more hard to find parts for them. I guess once a series gets to the point the insurance just totals it off for little damage in a collision, the market backs off for the big bucks elsewhere.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:34 AM
Hey Spike, I found an interesting thread discussing/comparing some of these different paint products. Rustoleum,X-O Rust, Rust Bullet and POR 15. Thought you might enjoy the read, as well as anyone else too!! :-)

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, December 04, 2011 7:38 AM
Worked on that awful hood this weekend. It was so bad I'd given up on it, in fact I'd picked up a couple of hoods a few months ago from the local junkyard, but since they also need some work, and are the wrong color, I got to wait till warmer weather prevails to get on them.So , I'm just trying to keep from having to see so much rust this winter, and a chance to gain some more experience. Upon doing some sanding I was surprised to NOT see a rusty mess just underneath the paint, the way rust has been bleeding up after every storm or shower, I figured it was a real mess under there. I believe what I'm seeing, is the old paint failing & cracking due to our local Paper Mill fallout, not the rust working it's way up to the surface.
I gotta say, painting the hood is a terrifying experience tho. You know , for better or worse, it is one of those panels that show up everything you did right ....and wrong. Its right there looking at you when you're driving, and stares you down from across the parking lot as you walk to your car.
So far the result was pretty good, the condition of the hood and paint isn't something I'll have to park at the around the back of the store...LOL. The off color blue is an eyesore compared to the rest of the car itself, but I've picked up a lot of color swatches from the local stores, and getting some ideas for what color combos I want to go with. I talked to a sales woman at the hardware store, that told me they can pretty much mix up any color my heart desires. For about $100 I can get 3 gallons of whatever I want mixed up, have plenty to paint with, and have lots more to be able to fix all kinds of goof ups, and touch-ups for years to come. I'm hoping in those years , I'll be able to get good enough with this to have some presentable autos. I've read this paint is vulnerable to UV rays, so I'm planning on getting some tarps to cover up what I can . Ron's advice about getting car covers has been rolling in my head!! Maybe I can't afford a cover, but I think a tarp might be as good.
I'll get lots of practice, tho. I got the wagon, the coupe, and an '86 Ranger to work on.

Nasty Mill Top Rot....BLAH Interestingly, the sides don't do this. All I've got is a few small localized cancer spots I keep a close eye on.

Nuthin' Hi TeK here. I did prop up the hood 6" or so , made it easy to keep my work off the surrounding body.

Halfway done...time for a break!! :-)

Old Dog...old trick?

One nice thing of painting this way is the serious difference in prep. There is so much you don't have to mask off & cover up. Just a tarp up under the engine bay up to the hood hinges, and a couple of trash bags at the cowl. So nice after all the work I went through , even to spray a small area!! My main mess came from the sanding.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:07 PM
Just a little update in this thread. The paint on the hood didn't get a chance to dry properly due to the cooler temps, and ....well looks terrible. On a positive note, I haven't had a bit of the rust issues I was experiencing, and boy am I grateful for that!! I can always sand and paint some more.
The real reason I revisited this thread, is because of my visit to NAPA today. I popped in to see what things are looking like since the new regs were introduced this year on the oil based stuff. As you can already guess....same as last year. Fellow at the counter said the EPA "delayed' things - another year. This is the same darned (water downed explicative) thing I had heard last year. 2 years of "January 1st there is no more oil based paint & no more paint guns in your garage", just to roll over like this... Now I know it doesn't do a bit of good to vent here on, but God it is so inconvenient for the Feds to screw around with the consumer like this. Either do something - or don't do something. Very aggravating indeed!!!
My plans for now are basically the same, as I am betting eventually the EPA is gonna lock down on this. I have also had pretty poor experience with that Crossfire paint- goes downhill fast after about a year. I am, however going to be buying the power packs you can spray with and using them to do my work on with the hardware enamel stuff where a roller or brush is just not a good idea.
This is completely unrelated, but if our Government decides to flip-flop like this with our health care laws......Boy are we in for a rough ride!!!


Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:01 AM
* Warning* this is a Looooong post* took me good while to find this post it has been awhile. I wanted to pick this particular one because it was where I had originally painted the top of the Wagon with the Cheap Enamel - and I thought folks might like to see how long it has lasted and held up.

Noe for the about $25 for a quart of paint and primer I think this stuff hold up great provided you don't expect miracles and can tolerate the fade out. Make no mistake this stuff fades something awful! However I am simply gunning for price , protection , and extending the life of my car - for me this works!!

At this point I am getting about 20 months of protection. That Compares almost exactly to what I got with the rattle can method. A much smaller rattle can of paint runs abut $8 nowadays. I wouldn't even want to price out painting a car that way these days. It took me 3 months and somewhere around $300 to do it myself the first time. Keep in mind I did a 3 tone paint job too with a custom grill and 2 pinstripes - the price for such a job at the shop would probably be a Gazillion Dollars.

So here is a follow up repair section. I didn't even start this job till 1:30 this afternoon and had the car rolled back out by 7:30 - a 6 hour job. At first inspection I had 3 rough places to deal with that quickly turned into 10 - nothing unusual. By 9pm it was raining!!
The paint is telling me it is time for attention! See a common theme? Most are under the roof rack at the bolt locations.

This one actually was the worst one causing me to lose sleep - rust is starting to come out of the paint here....

I'd barely noticed this one till I got the roof rack off....

Before shot....

The equipment - Poor Man's tools......

This stuff is My Friend!! My car owes it's life to this stuff!!

Now before you scold me about my old corded drill here and the advantages of cordless - I'd just like to say I've been busting rust, drilling holes , and running screws in and out with this tool for 20 years!! How long does a battery pack last? This one is still going strong!

Got this at the hardware store for about $25 - has saved me a lot of sanding disks over the years!!

Materials.... The only thing I will toss in the trash today will be the foam brush, but not before I soak it in thinner after priming and re-use it for the color coat. Small brush will be for rust inhibitor. Rust inhibitor is water based and I will wash up the oil container and brush for the next time.

Paint and rust bustin' - doesn't take long. Isn't pretty because it isn't meant to be. I'll be working on what needs attention today. As you might see, most places have been visited before. The Rust inhibitor is still doing its magic from the last time. I'm not interested in going down to shiny metal. Remove only what I need to because steel doesn't grow back!

This image is a great one to prove why I only remove what I have to. I used a grinding wheel on this and took it down to shiny metal , only to have to come back to it. Overkill.

Here is a shot of the top - I had a horrible time getting the paint to stick here a few years ago - needed to have been all removed and redone, but I didn't have the time or materials and it was getting cold. The paint has constantly popped and peeled here - and I have constantly patched it right back up and this time the paint has adhered much better. The purpose of the shot is to shot the extreme fade of the paint and also to illustrate that no matter how bad a car may look - the important thing is to maintain it and keep the rust at bay. Next year I hope to get this mess sanded down and apply a smooth uniform coat with a foam roller. Oh yes, some of these patches were made in the dead of winter at freezing - I'd run the car in the garage and use a couple halogen shop lights a few inches off the metal to heat it up so I can make repairs. It Worked!!

Rust inhibitor - I said this stuff is foamy - and here it is. You have to shake it up before use and this is what you get. Take time and work out all the bubbles or it will set like this and you have no rust conversion in spots....

Won't show all the photos of the Inhibitor going on , but it is going to show brush marks unless you use a roller and these small spots are really too small for that. One reason I don't go crazy worrying about a smooth even finish on this car.

Intermission..... If you are not sleeping by now or gone away I have a shop tip for ya.
If you find a box fan someone has thrown out and nitice one of the blades is broken off, ....well pick it up and bring it home cause I got a trick for that puppy!!

Drill a hole with your 20 year old corded drill ( yes you Must have a 20 year old corded drill or it just isn't the same ..LoL) and screw in a proper sized auto balance weigh off an old wheel. (I knew I was saving them for something...) Use a screw and nut .not a wood screw or it will probably fly off.

and there you go - 4 blade still work just fine ...

Back to work... at this point I start to feel better knowing the rust is gone and all I got to do now is cover everything back up.

Finally Prime and Paint and the result... Looks much better than rust, now don't they...]

Wrap up - reinstall roof rack and the old wagon is ready to go again!!

I know this ain't pretty , but it sure beats a fist sized hole growing somewhere. Been doing this kind of repairs on the old wagon for some time and it keeps the rust at bay and the car goes anywhere and hauls anything I can get in it. Actually I had a load of old 2x8's in it that I had picked up at work they were throwing away in the back. I cleaned it out and vacuumed inside while the final coats were tacking up! This is the best old car I have ever had!! Hope you enjoyed the post.


Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:36 AM
Nice work. I have to take off my rear bumper soon to tackle some rust and this gave me a good idea of what to expect and how to fix it. All it has to do is work...being pretty is just a plus.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, August 18, 2013 7:24 PM
Yep , after it set out in the rain last night I got up and took a look and the new patches were shriveled up like the others , but the paint held up and is doing its job!! Ran around today all day running some errands in it - not having to worry about an rust on top.

I'm pleased as punch!


Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:51 PM
Well at least your addressing the need be's to keep it from some real drama.Nice explanation of things and pics to boot.I am just running out of go longggg day and my gosh the traffic was horrid on I95 going north.Great results orlen.

Re: Painting on my 1st gens.....(the hard way)
Monday, August 19, 2013 8:09 AM
Good work there Orlen! You must really have it bad with that paper mill stuff eating your cars from the top down. Up here in New England it's from the bottom up and once those rust gremlins have eaten the frame, the car is done.LoL

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