Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder - Suspension and Brake Forum

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Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 3:21 AM
I'm getting into a debate about whether or not you need a bigger master cylinder to run Baer's rear disk brakes or even front. Has anyone had any issues with using their stock master with the Baer or any other setup? I tried searching and came up empty.
thanks


____________
Steph

92 Beretta GTZ
96 Beretta Z26

Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:10 AM
you DONT need to change the master cylinder to run bear brakes .. I know people with them and others with wildwood's and still have the stock master cylinder






Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 1:44 PM
No, you don't need a bigger MC, though I think it would be a nice touch to add one in later. It's something I'd like to try some day, if I can find one that will swap right in.





Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 5:21 PM
The master cylinder off a recent (97+) w-body will work. I've been told the N, G and H body MC will work as well; but I can not verify this, nor do I know years.

You really shoudn't need a bigger MC though. If anything try the MC+TC, which was an option for our cars. Any time the pedal goes more than 40% of the way down (which is braking quite hard already) it pumps up the pressure and tries to push the pedal back up to 40%.



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:12 PM
Do you know what the size difference is on any of those cars?






Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:48 PM
You dont need a bigger MC, The bear kit front and rear uses C4 corvette parts, and the C4 vette and the J-body have the same size MC from the factory.

I have the 13" front and 12" rear disk conversion and my car will stop very fast if i need to, and i have needed to a few times, with no problems, if anything the stock ABS computer has trouble keeping up with the bigger brakes.

Also i think you would casue a softer pedal with a bigger MC, or possibly the oppesite, the pedel would be way to touchy, mine is nice and firm, and only drops maybe 1/2 in and the car is stopping nice andsmooth.


Mike

1992 GMC Sonoma GT #492. Oh, Its just a stock V6!

1999 Cavalier Coupe, daily driver, 2200/M5. Mods and pics are in my registry.
+
That pretty much says it all.


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Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Monday, September 12, 2005 10:16 AM
The w-body MC is slightly bigger. The G & H are definately bigger. Having a larger MC will only make a small difference overall. Mostly in the maximum power you can put to the wheels, which will most likely be limited by your foot strength or your tire tiraction anyway.

The bigger cylinder would make the pedal travel less for the same braking ability. I wouldn't say touchy, but you get the idea.

Also, I don't think the ABS or TC systems are compatible between the cars. So you would loose those.



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Monday, September 12, 2005 1:29 PM
H body MC is 1 1/8" and bolts up perfect to the 2nd gen booster (which I'm going to assume is the same size as 3rd gen) There are only two different reservoirs available, one for ABS cars (with a tube off the side to connect ot the ABS module), and one for non ABS cars. Forget about using the TEVES MC. You will definetely need to ditch the ABS if you use the H MC since it only has two ports, unless you swap the entire H body ABS module over also.

I ended up using an Eclipse reservoir with mine, since I couldn't find the non ABS reservoir at the yard-


This is the ABS reservoir (the tube is on the other side of it and is almost impossible to plug, plus, the reservoir didn't clear the hood)-


You could also use an F body MC, which has the same bolt pattern as the H body one, you can use the stock Cav reservoir with it and the ports are on the other side.





Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:48 PM
Thanks guys.


____________
Steph

92 Beretta GTZ
96 Beretta Z26
Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 10:07 AM
C.T.S wrote:

The w-body MC is slightly bigger. The G & H are definately bigger. Having a larger MC will only make a small difference overall. Mostly in the maximum power you can put to the wheels, which will most likely be limited by your foot strength or your tire tiraction anyway.

The bigger cylinder would make the pedal travel less for the same braking ability. I wouldn't say touchy, but you get the idea.

Also, I don't think the ABS or TC systems are compatible between the cars. So you would loose those.


Bigger master cylinder should end up in less pedal travel and a more sensitive feel.

I've got no issue with braking power or anything and wouldn't even consider putting in an MC that would require tossing the ABS. It's just one of those "wouldn't mind trying it out" sorts of things that I'd do if it was cheap and simple.




Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:25 PM
You can use an older (early 90s) ABS H body MC with 4 ports. Although I didn't make any measurements on it, it appears that the J ABS module may fit. The proportioning would probably be pretty weird though since the bore is bigger.





Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:35 PM
The later H MC has a fully separated ABS unit. The unit can be take off the car, along with it's computer, and dropped into our J-bodies. It would be a fair amount of work, wiring it up and all. But it's totally possible. You can also get one with Traction Control. So if you're used to having TC you would still have it.

There are two lines that come out of the MC, they are not front and back, so don't put a valve of any kind in there. The two lines run into the ABS/TC unit. The ABS/TC unit has four lines coming out. Each line's pressure is individually controlled, and meant for a specific wheel/brake. All four of the ABS sensors will need to be wired into the ABS/TC controller too.

In case you're wondering, the two lines coming out of the MC go to the Front-Left + Rear-Right and Front-Right + Rear-Left. So like I said, no proportioning valves in those two lines.

Finally you will need proportioning valves (which could also be pulled off the H-body), in line to the rear brakes. On an h-body they are mounted under the driver's seat, toward the outside of the car.

And one other little note: the ABS/TC unit must be lower than the MC because it has a resevoir supply line that must be hooked up to the MC reservoir (which can also be stolen off a H-body).

If you need wiring schematics, I might be able to find some around here somewhere.



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:50 PM
C.T.S wrote:

The later H MC has a fully separated ABS unit. The unit can be take off the car, along with it's computer, and dropped into our J-bodies. It would be a fair amount of work, wiring it up and all. But it's totally possible. You can also get one with Traction Control. So if you're used to having TC you would still have it.

There are two lines that come out of the MC, they are not front and back, so don't put a valve of any kind in there. The two lines run into the ABS/TC unit. The ABS/TC unit has four lines coming out. Each line's pressure is individually controlled, and meant for a specific wheel/brake. All four of the ABS sensors will need to be wired into the ABS/TC controller too.

In case you're wondering, the two lines coming out of the MC go to the Front-Left + Rear-Right and Front-Right + Rear-Left. So like I said, no proportioning valves in those two lines.

Finally you will need proportioning valves (which could also be pulled off the H-body), in line to the rear brakes. On an h-body they are mounted under the driver's seat, toward the outside of the car.

And one other little note: the ABS/TC unit must be lower than the MC because it has a resevoir supply line that must be hooked up to the MC reservoir (which can also be stolen off a H-body).

If you need wiring schematics, I might be able to find some around here somewhere.



Yet, none of this is even needed. The stock J MC and ABS work just fine with the bigger brakes. Way to much work for no kind of differance. If your MC is bad just get a stock replacememt and be done with it.

Unless you want to dump your ABS, which in these tiny cars is not a good idea, i once test drove one of the new 03 cavys and it was a base model that didnt have ABS, well we were going around a curve in the road, and i had to stop real quick because there was a line of traffic and the ass end nearly came out from under the car becasue the rear brakes tried to lock up, good thing i knew what to do, or i would have had to buy a brand new wrecked car.

But if you want to take it off, then yes maybe one of these MC would be a good replacement.

Just my $.02


Mike

1992 GMC Sonoma GT #492. Oh, Its just a stock V6!

1999 Cavalier Coupe, daily driver, 2200/M5. Mods and pics are in my registry.
+
That pretty much says it all.


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Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:51 PM
Mike: Yes. We know. Where did we say you had to do any of this??
The second post in the forum clearly states all this is unnecessary.

The question was ask "could this be done", the answer is "yes". Then the question of "how" was brought up. To which James and I have answered.

Yes it's alot of work. No it's not necessary. But if anybody wants to, there's how to do it.

BTW: If you want the ABS & TC you need the full system off a 96-99 H-Body (ex Bonneville).



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 21, 2005 4:37 PM
An update to this- the non ABS H body reservoir won't fit the ABS MC. Even though the part numbers coincide, one of the ports on the reservoir is too big to fit.




Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:03 PM
So no mix and match ABS with non-ABS, MC w/ Reservoir. And they have the same part number you say? That is strange.

BTW: I do not have wiring schematics, so it would be a bit of guessing with a whole lot of matching the colored wires.



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:05 PM
No, they have different part numbers, but the GM parts network says that either one will fit either MC. Very strange. Both the MCs will fit the booster, its just that one has four ports (non ABS) and the other has two (ABS).




Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Monday, September 26, 2005 7:21 AM
HotRodV6 wrote:

Yet, none of this is even needed. The stock J MC and ABS work just fine with the bigger brakes. Way to much work for no kind of differance. If your MC is bad just get a stock replacememt and be done with it.


We all agree that it's not necessary, but it WOULD make a difference. I stated the difference earlier.





Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:38 PM
Bringing this WAY back from the dead
I have a question. I need to get rid of my huge ABS unit on my 96 since the downpipe from the turbo will need to run there. I dumped the abs a while ago, so that doesnt really matter.
Which non ABS master will work best? I have Wilwood fronts and SSBC rears.



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:49 PM
contact wilwood...they have several different MC's to chose from...



Re: Baer brakes and bigger master cylinder
Wednesday, September 17, 2008 12:54 PM

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