come try!! see what happens, if you win, go ahead take my stuff, its obvious that you must be supeiror. but thats not the case
but anyways, the point i was trying to make was more along the lines of
I think its funny that a lot of these "pro life" people will protest all day long, then go out into the woods and hunt and fish and eat meat and stuff like that, which supports killing, which is exactly what abortion is. so they protest killing, while they kill other animals. there is no difference between a human and an animal, so whats the big commotion over an abortion
I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity
and before someone comes up with the dumb ass statement of "you wouldn't feel that way if your mom thought like that" yes, your right, i wouldn't, but thats because i never would have been born, which means i never would have known life, which kinda makes teh whole statement meaningless
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard so far this month.
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mikec2003 wrote:come try!! see what happens, if you win, go ahead take my stuff, its obvious that you must be supeiror. but thats not the case
but anyways, the point i was trying to make was more along the lines of
I think its funny that a lot of these "pro life" people will protest all day long, then go out into the woods and hunt and fish and eat meat and stuff like that, which supports killing, which is exactly what abortion is. so they protest killing, while they kill other animals. there is no difference between a human and an animal, so whats the big commotion over an abortion
I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity
and before someone comes up with the dumb ass statement of "you wouldn't feel that way if your mom thought like that" yes, your right, i wouldn't, but thats because i never would have been born, which means i never would have known life, which kinda makes teh whole statement meaningless
No AGuSTiN - it isn't ridiculous. I agree with him. You can't lose what you never had. No matter if you are classified as "life" or not doesn't really matter. Sentient thought is a bit more important - and anyone who thinks a fetus or even better - an embryo - has Sentient though is deceiving themselves.
The me who is now - is a result of what I've experienced and the choices I've made. It is the results of the life I lived. Therefore I have something to lose so to speak. An "unborn child" (blah blah blah BS) is a blank slate - no memories, no preferences, no love/hate. Nothing gained is nothing lost. So if my mother had aborted me - I wouldn't "mind" as I'd be incapable of "minding" anything - I wouldn't be here - if fact I would have never existed in anything but a biological sense(even that is iffy).
If your worried about what those blank slates could have been etc etc - then stop wearing condoms and taking birth control you dirty murdering scumbags!! Those sperm + those eggs deserve a chance at life!! You may think I'm taking that overboard but really it's only a stone's throw away from what many believe. In fact - Catholics (as a whole but not everyone though) DO believe this - it is Catholic doctrine.
If you believe that "life is sacred" - if you really believe that - then you need to boycott any and all death. That means all fighting/war(no matter how just it may be), death penalty, hunting, and the meat industry for that matter(there you go Vegans). Until you condone all death - no matter why - you don't really feel that life is that sacred and you are not "pro-life" as much as "pro-legislate-my-inconsistent-morals-on-everyone."
Now for people worrying about it being used instead of condoms - chew on this. A friend of mine had an abortion - partially based on my advise. She made a mistake(in many ways) the night she got pregnant. She was not ready for a baby and still isn't. Not to mention that the guy who knocked her up - SHOULD NEVER EVER BE ALLOWED TO BREED - but I'm not getting further into that right now. (BTW the doctor who performed it - his other job is to deliver babys at the hospital
)
Anyways, while she initially made a mistake - after the fact she did the right thing - she corrected her mistake. Cost her over $600 too. How is that for a condom substitute? I doubt many use it that way for that very reason alone. Now for those that do get a tri-yearly abortion - C'mon do you REALLY want them spreading their genetics further?! Seriously I don't.
Now for those concerned about the cost of welfare etc - you should rejoice at every ended pregnancy - because statistically the people who get pregnant the most(planning aside) are the same people who live their lives on welfare and eat your tax money - now they have more kids and as such are entitled to MORE WELFARE. I actually know people in real life who have kids to get more government handouts - one of them wants her (slightly) mentally challenged daughter to hurry up and get pregnant so she can collect more money. Do you seriously want people like that to breed anyways?
We have enough @!#$ people in the world that we should encourage people to NOT have so many kids. Yes there is birth control and people should use it - but it isn't 100% effective and lets face it - it doesn't always happen. Tell me - is there one of you who has NEVER EVER had unprotected sex? Yeah - that's what I thought.
For those who complain that abortions only happen because people are irresponsible - what about the fact that no birth control is 100% effective(not to mention condom rupture - it happens) ? Assume that you are completely responsible - the woman is on B/C and the man is still using a condom - the condom breaks and the the 1/100 chance that the womans B/C fails her - happens. So everyone was responsible and she is still pregnant. Is it ok for her to have a choice in what happens? Or should she be forced to have a baby she never wanted despite how responsible she was?
There aren't a ton around still - but I challange any of you to find someone who was a practicing doctor before abortions where legalized. Find someone who remembers the horrors of back-alley coat hanger abortions. Ask them how they feel. I already know the answer to that one.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
holy crap.....for the first time ever I agree totally with you
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
That kind of all-or-nothing thought is crap.
Do you eat steak? Chicken? Fish? Do you eat people?
See, we are not the same. It's not the same at all. Life feeds on life, that is a fact of the matter. Those deaths are not just for the sake of killing. They are not people either. If you wanna take that stance then I guess you had either start eating people or become vegan. Gimme a break.
Killing a baby may or may not be a necessary death but in the event (which is common) that the abortion could have been avoided, through adption or whatever, it was not a necessasry death, it was a convenience. The killing of the cow was a necessary death. We are omnivores, we eat meat as part of our diet, it is fuel and we need it. The cow would not exist if it weren't for that reason and we do not waste the carcass.
This is not a cut and dried issue, there are many grey areas and the kind of black and white thinking I see above is not only BS, its counter-productive.
PAX
Thank-you Pax. Them trying to present this either-or-thinking in such a complex issue is absolutely counter-productive. Not to mention very few people would agree with the foundation of their argument that people are no more important than animals, which like you said, totally ignores nature.
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No sweat, but.. My name is not PAX.
PAX is a shortened version Of PAX VOBISCUM which is Latin for "Peace be with you"
I have an affection for Latin.. sorry to confuse.
PAX
My question to the OP is this:
I was raped at age 13. If the guy had gotten me pregnant, should I have, at 13, gone through the mental and physical hell of bearing his child? Should I have hated myself and the parasite within me day after day for 9 long months, been ostracized by my peers?
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The killing of the cow was a necessary death. We are omnivores, we eat meat as part of our diet, it is fuel and we need it. The cow would not exist if it weren't for that reason and we do not waste the carcass
whoa---
the death of a cow is %100 unnecessary. you do not need to eat meat, you do not need to eat a cow or that cow or a chicken or a flea. it is exactly as you described certain situations of abortion - CONVENIENCE. not neccessity in anyway what so ever.. EVER.
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Proven fact. Vegetarians live 7 years less than omnivors on average.
Animal protein is not the same a vegetable protein.
Are systems are designed for a variety of foods to include meat.
Cattle would not exist if we didn't eat them,
At least if we kill a cow, we eat the meat, use the bone for rendering (including white cane sugar) and use the hide for leather products. Comparing a child to a production animal is rediculas, no matter how you slice it.
Eating meat is not sport hunting or wearing fur. Abortions of convenience is a lot closer to sport hunting than it is animal husbandry.
Alexis.. No, at 13 the pregnancy may have endangered your life as well as being metally challenging. Depending on your mental fitness, that may have been too much for you to handle as well.
That's why I consistantly say this issue is far from black and white.
PAX
If your responisble enough to have sex, you can be responsible enough to face the consiquences.
If one gets pregnant unwillingly (rape), than they should have the choice.
Hahahaha wrote:Proven fact. Vegetarians live 7 years less than omnivors on average.
link?
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Animal protein is not the same a vegetable protein.
wrong. soy protein is a "complete" protein and so is animal protein. and therefore a complete protein = complete protein.
Quote:
Are systems are designed for a variety of foods to include meat.
incorrect. our systems are designed to need certain nutrients. it so happens that it we can get those nutrients easily from animals. just because we can get it from animals easy does NOT mean we need it from animals.
for instance, cats actually NEED animal meat. i dont remember off hand what about it they need but without they can not survive pretty much no matter what else they eat.
humans however do not NEED ANYTHING from animal meat. and thats proven.
Quote:
Cattle would not exist if we didn't eat them,
ignorance man. grass wouldnt exist if we didnt step on it? ants wouldnt exist if we didnt spray them with raid? seagulls wouldnt exist if we didnt get pissed off at them for @!#$tin on our cars?
that statement is so far incorrect i can barely attempt to describe it.
i dont care wether you eat meat or not, and i dont care wether you care if i do or not. but the statements you are making are incorrect.
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At least if we kill a cow, we eat the meat, use the bone for rendering (including white cane sugar) and use the hide for leather products. Comparing a child to a production animal is rediculas, no matter how you slice it.
you were the one doing the comparing not me. i just pointed out the incorrectness of your statment
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Eating meat is not sport hunting or wearing fur. Abortions of convenience is a lot closer to sport hunting than it is animal husbandry.
again you were doing the comparing.
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Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
whoa---
the death of a cow is %100 unnecessary. you do not need to eat meat, you do not need to eat a cow or that cow or a chicken or a flea. it is exactly as you described certain situations of abortion - CONVENIENCE. not neccessity in anyway what so ever.. EVER.
What My-Name-Is-Not-Pax said is true. The truth is it takes a LOT of effort to not have health and malnourishment problems.
stReve wrote:If your responisble enough to have sex, you can be responsible enough to face the consiquences.
Again, what is this line of logic? Any idiot can father a child, but it takes a man to be a dad.
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I said cattle would not exist if we didn't eat them becasue it is true. Grass can propegate itself without protection from humans, cattle cannot. Ever been around cattle? I have, I grew up on a beef operation. I can say with all confidence that the domesticated cow would die far before it could give birth if humansd did not intervene. Cattle not only are very poor at protecting themselves, they aren't smart enough to know when to do it. There's an old expression that is totally true. You can hunt a cow with a hammer. They have little to no instinct for survival. They are pretty good mothers in general, but do not know when to run, when to protect etc. They are very good at eating, and feeding their young, but a pet dog can devastate a 1200lb cow with ease. Now lets rewind 200 years... Wolves.. Enough said.
Same goes for almost every production animal.
The vegetarian movement is so full of propeganda and flat out lies, I cannot take the time to argue with you. I'll put it this way.. We have teeth for meet and vegetables, we have a medium length digestive system, designed for both. Ever heard of a rumanant? Ever think about why ruminant animals have 4 stomachs, have to re-eat their food etc? Ever notice the size of a horse's barrel? Do you have any idea how long it takes to digest for them? Herbavors (which we are not) have extrememly long digestive systems so that they have some hope of extracting nutient.
This thread is about abortion law, if you want to go down the line of lies and BS spread by so-called "animal rights activists" then start a new thread.
PAX
PS: It was Bastardkling that compared unborn children to meat animals.
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wrong. soy protein is a "complete" protein and so is animal protein. and therefore a complete protein = complete protein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Protein
Soybeans are a source of complete protein.[6] A complete protein is one that contains significant amounts of all the essential amino acids that must be provided to the human body because of the body's inability to synthesize them. For this reason, soy is important to many vegetarians and vegans.
However, the phrase complete protein can be a bit misleading since proteins vary in their protein values. Whole eggs have a biological value of 100 versus a 74 for soy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan#Health_concerns
A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher quality protein according to the PDCAAS and Biological Value methods than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy.
Quote:
humans however do not NEED ANYTHING from animal meat. and thats proven.
sure, but its easier to maintain health with it.
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Alexis wrote:My question to the OP is this:
I was raped at age 13. If the guy had gotten me pregnant, should I have, at 13, gone through the mental and physical hell of bearing his child? Should I have hated myself and the parasite within me day after day for 9 long months, been ostracized by my peers?
If you note, a lot of the pro-life peeps (on here anyways) agree with you to that point. However would you wait untill 3mos along to have an abortion or would you take the "morning after" pill?
My main point, abortion is not a form of birth control, STOP USING IT AS A CRUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for hunting etc., smart people hunt to eat not for game. Do you eat dead fetus'?
Man is the superior being on Earth so get over it!
-Brandon
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Proven fact. Vegetarians live 7 years less than omnivors on average.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
link?
Can you prove your case?
Quote:
Animal protein is not the same a vegetable protein.
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wrong. soy protein is a "complete" protein and so is animal protein. and therefore a complete protein = complete protein.
It may be, but it is not a "natural" protien. It must be refined. I could go out to the grain bins and pound down pounds of soy beans raw, but my system would reject most of it. In it's natural state it's far to crude to even be useful. Its only after it's processed that it's useful. It may be complete, but it's not natural.
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Are systems are designed for a variety of foods to include meat.
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incorrect. our systems are designed to need certain nutrients.
You sir...are incorrect. Different animals need different foods. You can see what types of food that they require by their mouth structure
Carnivore-Pointed teeth all the way back. The front's are used for cutting and tearing, while the backs are used for breaking bones.
Herbivore-Front teeth are used for gentle cutting, for grasses, and the back teeth are used for grinding said grasses into a paste of sorts.
Omnivore-Uses front teeth for ripping and cutting flesh, and back teeth for grinding grains and grasses.
Now...tell me again how we're not designed to eat meat? If we we're ment to eat just soy products, without refinement, we would be designed more like cows or deer. That is also the way they determine what type of food dinosaurs ate, based on teeth structure.
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
it so happens that it we can get those nutrients easily from animals. just because we can get it from animals easy does NOT mean we need it from animals.
for instance, cats actually NEED animal meat. i dont remember off hand what about it they need but without they can not survive pretty much no matter what else they eat.
Kinda funny...cat's are more like carnivores...interesting...you do know what's in cat food right? Rendered animals. Farmers and such have no use for them, might as well feed them to Fluffy.
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
humans however do not NEED ANYTHING from animal meat. and thats proven.
Link? And, preferibly one that isn't brimming with propaganda...
Quote:
Cattle would not exist if we didn't eat them,
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ignorance man. grass wouldnt exist if we didnt step on it? ants wouldnt exist if we didnt spray them with raid? seagulls wouldnt exist if we didnt get pissed off at them for @!#$tin on our cars?
that statement is so far incorrect i can barely attempt to describe it.
i dont care wether you eat meat or not, and i dont care wether you care if i do or not. but the statements you are making are incorrect.
Both wrong...and yet right.
Yes, cattle woudn't exist, becuase they are demosticated...but they would have a wild counterpart.
But, no, they would still be around, becuase natural proteine comes from animals. I mean, people didn't start truely eating soy in vast ammounts until 2800 B.C. Which is a while back...but they had been eating meet for a lot longer. So to say that soy is THE way to do it is ignorant to history.
Sorry to thread jack even more...just wanted to put my 2 cents in.
mikec2003 wrote:I like abortion, to me its one step closer to a cure for a virus.......Humanity
Really? You should cure yourself
@!#$ your cynical
Studies have shown that in California a Vegetarian is likely to live 1.5 to 2 years longer than an omnivor BUT in nations without such good access to dieticians etc it has been shown that Vegetarians live about 7 years less. It is mostly due to the fact that outside of wealthy nations people do not have access to dieticians or other vegetarian resources available to wealthier vegetarians. Also, in those countries, the omnivors tend not to gorge themselves on huge masses of meat with no sides like you will see in many steak houses.
As has been taught for thousands of years.. Everything in moderation. Some meat, some veggies, you'll do fine. Nothing but unprocessed veggies, bad. Nothing but meat with no veggies, bad.
PAX
wow really?
maybe you should ask:
hindus
buhddists
rastas
jainists
orthodox sihks
gnostics
if you need to be wealthy, need a dietician and refined soy and other products to live a VERY long time, very healthy and very happy.
because most of the above list have been doing it for THOUSANDS of years.
vegan/vegetarianism is not a new thing.
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did you stop to think that the reason why vegs in lesser countries live seven less years because of low medical care in general?
is that seven year difference compared to how logn a meat eater lives in the US or is it comparing within the same country and same region?
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Hahahaha wrote:I said cattle would not exist if we didn't eat them becasue it is true. Grass can propegate itself without protection from humans, cattle cannot. Ever been around cattle? I have, I grew up on a beef operation. I can say with all confidence that the domesticated cow would die far before it could give birth if humansd did not intervene. Cattle not only are very poor at protecting themselves, they aren't smart enough to know when to do it. There's an old expression that is totally true. You can hunt a cow with a hammer. They have little to no instinct for survival. They are pretty good mothers in general, but do not know when to run, when to protect etc. They are very good at eating, and feeding their young, but a pet dog can devastate a 1200lb cow with ease. Now lets rewind 200 years... Wolves.. Enough said.
Same goes for almost every production animal.
first, yes i have been around cattle
second, it is untrue cattle would die before they could give birth without human intervention
third, it is true that the genetically manipulated nd bred version of the production based cow now is not a efficient competitor.
which means yes, most likely over time that variation of what a cow is would die off. it is called survival of the fittest and there is nothign wrong with that. if a cow as a species can not compete for resources or protect it self well enough to breed than it dies off. same with ALL species.
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The vegetarian movement is so full of propeganda and flat out lies, I cannot take the time to argue with you. I'll put it this way.. We have teeth for meet and vegetables, we have a medium length digestive system, designed for both.
i have never disagreed that our bodies did not devolop in a way to incorporate meat. through human evolution over millions of years there were times that vegetables and non meat food was not available. ie think ice age. so in order for us to survive at that time we had to evolve ways to survive. in which we did.
i dont know who or what or where you read that anyone says humans were never made to eat meat. nto from me i know that.
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This thread is about abortion law, if you want to go down the line of lies and BS spread by so-called "animal rights activists" then start a new thread.
get out of the mindset that vegetarianism is new and always has to do with animal activism. its thousands of years old and is world wide.
because i am vegan do NOT lump me into whatever ill learned stereotypes of american vegetarians you may have.
I am also a buhddist/taoist and that is where my inspiration lies in my choices. so read on that way of thought before you think you know why i say what i say.
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PS: It was Bastardkling that compared unborn children to meat animals.
then pardon the mistake.
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Alexis wrote:My question to the OP is this:
I was raped at age 13. If the guy had gotten me pregnant, should I have, at 13, gone through the mental and physical hell of bearing his child? Should I have hated myself and the parasite within me day after day for 9 long months, been ostracized by my peers?
i think abortions are fine when rape occurs since the mental and phycological damage that could happen with the mother is just the same as if the baby was risking your medically.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Budhists in Laos have a life expectancy of 54 years (male)
In Japan a Budhist is expected to live to 78 (male)
Hindis in India, 58 (male)
Do you see the difference? Money, resource. Non-hindis in India can expect to live to 67 or so.. On average, worldwide the delta is 7 years.
This thread is not about this, so drop it.
No matter how healthy I am, I will not be happy without the odd steak.
Moderation is healthier than no meat at all. It is also a healthier attitude. All or nothing attitudes lead to anger, frustration and elevated stress levels.
If it's all about animal welfare and poor farming practyices, get off the PETA site and go visit a farm. It'll open your eyes. On our farm, if a choice had to be made, the animals came first. If there was a water problem, the water to the barns get's fixed before the water to the house, for example.
PAX
AGuSTiN wrote:Quote:
wrong. soy protein is a "complete" protein and so is animal protein. and therefore a complete protein = complete protein.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy#Protein
Soybeans are a source of complete protein.[6] A complete protein is one that contains significant amounts of all the essential amino acids that must be provided to the human body because of the body's inability to synthesize them. For this reason, soy is important to many vegetarians and vegans. However, the phrase complete protein can be a bit misleading since proteins vary in their protein values. Whole eggs have a biological value of 100 versus a 74 for soy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan#Health_concerns
A common misconception is that vegetable protein is equal to animal protein. In fact, protein obtained from animal sources such as fish, eggs and dairy is inherently a higher quality protein according to the PDCAAS and Biological Value methods than protein obtained from vegetable sources such as soy.
you are right sir. soy does have a lower bv than animal protein.
but you say it as if it is bad. BV is not as serious a evalution as you may think it is.
BV refers to how well and how quickly your body can actually use the protein you consume.
it has nothing to do with wether it is a complete protein or wether it has everything you need. it is simply how easily it absorbs into your body.
so the natural question would then be, how much protein do you eat vs how much of that type of protein ends up being used in accordance with the BV scale.
the fact of the matter is that americans get tremendously more protein than we need which ends up being secreeted as waste or converted and stored as fat.
so even with a 74% bv rating for soy products you would still be getting the correct amount of protein your body needs.
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humans however do not NEED ANYTHING from animal meat. and thats proven.
sure, but its easier to maintain health with it.
i dont agree at all. again if you check the list of cultures/religions that have been veg for thousands of years i HIGHLY doubt you will find ANY of them that say it is hard to stay healthy. and most of those cultures have ALOT less access to to things as americans.
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