Slightly off topic, but I got the Holley Commander in my hands tonight guys.

I loaded the program, and let me tell you, the support from Holley has already far surpassed that of Haltech.

Holley goes step by step with you through all of your tuning phases (idle tuning, cruising, acceleration, WOT, etc) and helps you set the parameters up correctly. All of that was included in the manual.

Haltech neglected to provide any information at all, and did NOT provide base maps of any sort.

Yes, the Haltech was a bit handier with its bar graphs, but once learning the tricks and hot keys for the Commander, Haltech fails in comparison.

More inputs, more functions, and much easier to understand the english. (its more basic, and f-in rights it works!)

Going to read over everything and then start to install it. I'll let you know if she fires

Quote:

Then why did you abandon the NA build lol?
The highest I've gotten a realistic (read: "no stroker, no ITB, no NA simulation so far is about 270hp or so. The funny part, it would probably be streetable if you didn't mind race gas After about 240-degrees .050" duration, power started to drop off very quickly.
I've seen about 250hp with an 11:1 on ethanol...mighty tempting, eh?

pump gas would be a requirement lol... too bad frickin sunoco stopped carrying 94 around here, and e85 isn't available yet... Once it is maybe I'll revisit the idea. What was the highest you can get with 93 on that simulator? I just ordered a program of my own but it won't be here for a few days.




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I want that software too, looks very interesting.

The simulation software assumes perfect fueling and spark timing. It's up to you to make it happen.

The "real" dyno simulation software such as Dynomation or Lockheed's engine simulator requires more variables than most people can collect. The stuff we're using is good for playing with commonly available parts, for learning how various numbers affect engine power. I think, for example, a bump to 12:1 from 11:1 on the engine above only raises torque by something like 18 ft/lbs. Good thing to know before investing many hours trying to make the engine detonation proof at 12:1.

Stevefire, sounds positive so far.

-->Slow

yea I was able to get some things togeather and figure numbers a little less than that so my n/a ideas are gone still going for a full build builit proof 2200 but this time with a turbo I figure that is going to be the best way to get to the whp I want



cardomain page

well i just got the comp cams desktop dyno software, haven't had time to play with it yet, nor do i know if its any good (one of my friends from the dodge shop i used to work at burned me a copy) but i guess i'll see when i mess with it later.




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Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:

Quote:

Then why did you abandon the NA build lol?
The highest I've gotten a realistic (read: "no stroker, no ITB, no NA simulation so far is about 270hp or so. The funny part, it would probably be streetable if you didn't mind race gas After about 240-degrees .050" duration, power started to drop off very quickly.
I've seen about 250hp with an 11:1 on ethanol...mighty tempting, eh?

pump gas would be a requirement lol... too bad frickin sunoco stopped carrying 94 around here, and e85 isn't available yet... Once it is maybe I'll revisit the idea. What was the highest you can get with 93 on that simulator? I just ordered a program of my own but it won't be here for a few days.

So...how much of a difference really is there going to be between using 94 octane or 93 octane? Quite a few stations around here have 93, and at least some of the Sunoco stations I've seen have 94, but I always figured the difference was so minimal that it wouldn't really matter - plus if you were building something that had to use at LEAST 94 octane, I don't think that'd be too good of an idea. I wouldn't trust a gas station 100% that those numbers are that precise.

And like I'd asked before...what would be the best RPM to set the redline at with an N/A build like these - 7K? From my understanding, if you were using HPT it wouldn't be hard at all to set the redline wherever you wanted, as long as your engine/valvetrain can handle it.

Realistically, 180-200 whp from an N/A build on the OHV would be awesome. That'd be well over double the stock HP (approaching 1 1/2 times it...), and I'm sure you could lay down some nice times with that. Not to mention people on the street would be completely caught off guard.

Marcus Williams wrote:And like I'd asked before...what would be the best RPM to set the redline at with an N/A build like these - 7K?

That would depend on your particular cam grind, header, intake manifold, port size, valve head size, and others. For a stock engine, the stock redline is fine as power dies out up there.

Marcus Williams wrote:From my understanding, if you were using HPT it wouldn't be hard at all to set the redline wherever you wanted, as long as your engine/valvetrain can handle it.

bingo.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

OHV notec wrote:That would depend on your particular cam grind, header, intake manifold, port size, valve head size, and others. For a stock engine, the stock redline is fine as power dies out up there.

Yeah, I guess what I'm really asking is, for the dynos that you guys had done showing theoretically what gains you would see with those mods, where would you set it? I guess it doesn't really matter so much at this point, since it is all theoretical.

But with the proper valvetrain and the redline raised to 7K or so, I think this would be a great route to take, and would still be streetable...I'm really thinking about getting ahold of a spare 2200 head and a dremel, and trying a P&P myself, and then start getting together the parts to build the head for this - just kinda learning as I go. I keep saying "I" though, it's my wife's car and yet I think I'm more into it than her She's definitely interested though...

You want to shift at peak horespower, so you'd set the redline shortly after that.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

Reviving this one. I have probably 113,000 thoughts and questions goin through my mind, but I'm gonna start off easy. Is there a thread anywhere about all motor numbers, combos, track times or where everyone listed what they have? I'd like to see that since I'm the 113,000th to try a 2200 buildup of my 99 Hope to get it going here, cause I love (and need) the knowledge. I appreciate it.

I root for the underdog...figured I might as well be one

Quote:

ahold of a spare 2200 head and a dremel

hahahaha get yourself an air powered die grinder and a good regulator... i tried porting an intake manifold with a dremel once, and i got i think 3 runners done before the thing blew the hell up.

Quote:

how much of a difference really is there going to be between using 94 octane or 93 octane?

In most cases, probably not much, but running 10-11:1 compression and trying to squeeze every last available hp out of it, its better than nothing...




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Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:hahahaha get yourself an air powered die grinder and a good regulator... i tried porting an intake manifold with a dremel once, and i got i think 3 runners done before the thing blew the hell up.

Ahh...well see, we live in an apartment (well, townhouse actually). No garage, no real place for air tools. I was thinking something that could be done on the back porch - real high tech, I know. Sorta like how I'd thought of trying to clear out some room somewhere as well to put an engine stand and a 2200 block and work on assembling it ourselves as well. Probably over our heads, but everything I've heard is that this is a great engine to learn with...

The thought was to tear the block down and take it to a machine shop to have it bored out, then reassemble it with #6 on this page (10.5:1 compression), as well as a reground cam, and maybe a lightened, knife-edged crankshaft. But this might be the sort of thing that we really can't do at our apartment...

bah, Event built his motor in his apartment lol... well, if no air is available, there are electric die grinders more powerful than a dremel that you could use as well. The dremel just can't take the abuse of sustained grinding of hard materials... it gets hot and pops... or at least two of mine did..




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Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:bah, Event built his motor in his apartment lol... well, if no air is available, there are electric die grinders more powerful than a dremel that you could use as well. The dremel just can't take the abuse of sustained grinding of hard materials... it gets hot and pops... or at least two of mine did..

I went through two dremels on my Audi heads, but the only time they snapped was when I was getting frustrated and obviously pushed them too hard. If you know the limits and have a lot of patience, a Dremel is okay. I also tried one of those Harbor Freight electric die grinders and it was great for the cast iron exhaust manifolds, but it would chew the crap out of the aluminum heads. Also, for whatever reason, intake manifolds tend to be made out of a harder composition than heads.
And yeah, Event did it in his living room I believe, and carried the thing up and down 3 flights of stairs or whatever by himself lol



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I used both an electric die grinder(with a variable speed control I made my self) rough in the shapes and a Dremel tool to do the finish work on the last head I did, which was a Ford 351M. On my head, I just used the Dremel tool and lots of patience. My next head, I'll start with a die grinder, then finish with the Dremel.

And Event is big enough to do that!

how easy is it to port and polish a 2200 head with the right tools... id try it myself but im afraid of getting something wrong.... like porting to much or something....

OHV notec wrote:

Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:bah, Event built his motor in his apartment lol... well, if no air is available, there are electric die grinders more powerful than a dremel that you could use as well. The dremel just can't take the abuse of sustained grinding of hard materials... it gets hot and pops... or at least two of mine did..

I went through two dremels on my Audi heads, but the only time they snapped was when I was getting frustrated and obviously pushed them too hard. If you know the limits and have a lot of patience, a Dremel is okay. I also tried one of those Harbor Freight electric die grinders and it was great for the cast iron exhaust manifolds, but it would chew the crap out of the aluminum heads. Also, for whatever reason, intake manifolds tend to be made out of a harder composition than heads.
And yeah, Event did it in his living room I believe, and carried the thing up and down 3 flights of stairs or whatever by himself lol

Well i'm glad i'm not the only one breaking them lol... Of course to be fair when I match-ported the cast ATP mani for the 1.8T i didn't have any problems..






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Well...since this thread has floated so far off topic as it is...I figured I'd push it even further

Has anyone who has done any kind of N/A build on the OHV swapped injectors? Because at a certain point you're going to need more fuel than the stock ones will provide. Now I don't know what size the stock ones are...but I did some calculations with a fuel injector calculator. Click me!

Desired Crankshaft HP 220
Number of Injectors 4
BSFC .5
Maximum Duty Cycle .6
Fuel Pressure 45 psi

Injector required = 45.06 lb/hr or 474 cc/min

I was basing this on an N/A build of ~200 whp, similar to what the dynos on the previous page had shown. However I'm still a little shaky on some of these numbers and such for injectors. But 474cc injectors for an N/A OHV??? I forget what the fuel pressure is stock, but I'm sure it can be bumped up with a FPR to squeeze a bit more out of smaller injectors, but only so much. If you fiddle with the numbers a bit more, with a BSFC of .45 (lowest recommended for N/A), duty cycle of .8 (highest recommended), and fuel pressure of 50 psi, you come up with ~300cc injectors. But that's not allowing much breathing room...

If I'm not way off here, it looks like 310's + a FPR wouldn't be a bad way to go for an all out N/A OHV...

why did you select your maximum duty cycle as .60? why not something closer to .80 or so? im j/w.

Going back to the Dyno programs, I just got ProRacing Sim's DeskTop Dyno Basic and started playing with it. I've got one qustion for those of you who have been playing with your programs, has any of you played with the camshft timing? In particular, if you entered my cam profile from the spec card I posted then retard the timing about 4 degrees(-4)? Something amasing happens, see for your selves and post back your results.

stevefire wrote:why did you select your maximum duty cycle as .60? why not something closer to .80 or so? im j/w.

Mainly so I wasn't pushing the limits of every one of the parameters. However my wife's car and my car are the first ones I've really worked on and I've never dealt with injectors before, so I don't know if perhaps I should just set that to .80 and leave it there. Like I said when I went back and fiddled with the numbers a bit more, by upping the maximum duty cycle to .80 and the BSFC to .45, (but upped the fuel pressure to 50 psi), the required injector that came out of that was ~300cc. So I was sorta assuming 310's would probably be ideal for an all out N/A OHV...

Logical, or am I nuts?

MadJack wrote:Going back to the Dyno programs, I just got ProRacing Sim's DeskTop Dyno Basic and started playing with it. I've got one qustion for those of you who have been playing with your programs, has any of you played with the camshft timing? In particular, if you entered my cam profile from the spec card I posted then retard the timing about 4 degrees(-4)? Something amasing happens, see for your selves and post back your results.

Quit holding out and tell us! Not all of us have those cool programs to mess with - and you've got me really curious what it spits out. Is it a 250 hp OHV?

My program graphs the HP and Torque from 2500-8000 rpm. I did a sim on the way my motor is now and then overlaid that with a sim if I retarded the cam 4 degrees and found some nice gains just about across the board. The gains were of 1 lb/ft of tq @ 2500 to 13lbs/ft @ 5500 and 3hp @ 3500 to 14 hp @ 5500, with no losses shown in the lower rpms. There were more gains above the rev limit, but I;m just listing the gains within the current operating parameters. Now just to either get the older '82 1.8L timing set and do the appropriate mods to it and my cam to retard the timing, or figure a way to do it with the stock timing set. On motors such as the SBC, its a simple tuning tool, but is a little more difficult on a 2.2L/2200 OHV! Of course the more the motor is modified the greater the gains were! Even with just the mods I'm looking at doing here shortly.

Definitely sounds worthwhile...

Damn I'm almost getting more interested in working on and building up my wife's car than my own at this point, because it seems there's more potential to make big gains with this one! Of course with my Eclipse, just intake, headers, and exhaust, I'm looking at 170s whp/180s wtq (and hopefully by this time next year I'll be putting down nearly 300 whp supercharged), but there's something awesome about hearing how you can more than double the power of an engine WITHOUT strapping a bottle on it or doing FI. Plus, who suspects the 2002 Sunfire?