Sorry Pax murder is murder please don't try to justify it because you can not. Him being just a "kid" does not negate the fact that he murdered 2 people. There is no excuse at
all. And the electric chair is still used in several states I believe. Since you dp oponents like to play the "what if" game ok lets play shall we? What if the 2 people
your good friend murdered would have gone on to cure Aids? Or how about cancer?
Now is it still so forgivable? What if one of them were ment to be president one day and bring about world peace? But he served his time and its ok now right? Or how about his kids? Mental illness runs in the family you do know that right? What if they decide to go on a killing spree one day just for kicks? And they kill your family. Was
it a good thing he wasn't exicuted now? Don't think so.

Bottom line when you take a life yours should be forfit point blank. Once your found guilty you get one appeal after that they take you around back let you dig your own grave
have you get in kneel down and out a bullet in your head. Total cost to exicute your sorry ass .25 bullet. And your family gets the bill for the bullet. Thats what should be done.


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jbody2nr wrote:
Now I respect your opinion and your morals and even your belief in God but, dont wave them around in front of me like it is going to help argue your point.

....

I would

A) Lie to a liar
B) Steal from a crook

Those are my beliefs. My morals are from good parents, bible and life experiences. And my reasoning, same as GAM has pointed about above, is to not be hypocritical with your own beliefs. I believe I hold my morals to a higher standard than you hold yours, because I'm willing to apply them without condition. You clearly don't.

Jbody2nr wrote:
Never said anything about weakening our rights. The innocents rights are always there.
But if they are found guilty then they are by law. Yes they should take one for the team and it is a rare occasion that an innocent is found guilty and put to death.

And again, it is just as rare for someone to escape from prison to kill again. It's a matter of escaped criminals killing innocents, or government of the people killing innocents. Seems like the lesser of two evils in my way.

Jbody2nr wrote:
So what happens if they do their time with the hard labor, Do they just go free to kill again?

Well let me expand on my recommendation. See, I recommend hard labor for anyone in jail. But for murderers, you won't find me arguing against life without parole for them all. That's just not a fight I'm going to pick, and it might be a fair concession to use to rid of the death penalty.

Hard labor while in prison is also the most cost effective of any solution. While the death penality is the most expensive and life is second, at least with hard labor you'd get some goods produced in exchange for the money society spends.


---

Hahahaha wrote:It will never happen again,

Will you stake your life on this? Because I wont take that chance for me or anyone else.


AuGuStIn: You make valid points, albeit not enough to sway me from my current view.
I just feel that it is alot better to be safe than sorry.


GAM: Again I still feel that its not killing its an execution and I believe there IS a difference.



____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Jbody2nr wrote:

AuGuStIn: You make valid points, albeit not enough to sway me from my current view.
I just feel that it is alot better to be safe than sorry.

Yeah, I think our basic disagreement is we both rather be safe than sorry, but who we are keeping safe and who we feel sorry for are different.


---

jackalope wrote:Sorry Pax murder is murder please don't try to justify it because you can not. Him being just a "kid" does not negate the fact that he murdered 2 people. There is no excuse at
all. And the electric chair is still used in several states I believe. Since you dp oponents like to play the "what if" game ok lets play shall we? What if the 2 people
your good friend murdered would have gone on to cure Aids? Or how about cancer?
Now is it still so forgivable? What if one of them were ment to be president one day and bring about world peace? But he served his time and its ok now right? Or how about his kids? Mental illness runs in the family you do know that right? What if they decide to go on a killing spree one day just for kicks? And they kill your family. Was
it a good thing he wasn't exicuted now? Don't think so.

Bottom line when you take a life yours should be forfit point blank. Once your found guilty you get one appeal after that they take you around back let you dig your own grave
have you get in kneel down and out a bullet in your head. Total cost to exicute your sorry ass .25 bullet. And your family gets the bill for the bullet. Thats what should be done.

First off PAX is not my name, it's a sign off, it's short for PAX VOBISCUM.

Once again you seem to think my friend has more than one child, he has only one, stop saying "kids".

Mental health issues can run in a family or they can be brought on by extreme stress or other mitigating factor. They are not necessarily genetic. Try a psyc course before going any further down this road with me.

You have a point about the lives that he took, but taking his will do nothing to fix that situation. 2 were all ready dead, how would killing one more make that any better.. It wouldn't, you're right. Now let pretend that all 3 involved parties had good to contribute (seriously in doubt regarding his victoms but... ). So, now 2 of the 3 people who have a potential to better society are dead.. Do you intend to kill the remaining one? What did that solve?

If there is an excuse for his behaviour (at that time) , which I don't believe there is, then it's the fact that for at least 10 years he suffered at the hands of these people. He should have run away or something but he snapped. Have you ever been pushed past your limit by someone? Have you ever thought to yourself "good thing I didn't have a gun with me, I might have killed that guy" I'm pretty sure many people have been there (mentally), the difference here was that he had been taking it for more than 10 years and he did have a gun. Maybe if the gun wasn't there they'd be alive today. Even if someone had arrived to slow him down long enough to think about it. Fact is, that didn't happen. They beat on him at exactly the wrong time. It was a "crime of passion" as the wording goes.. As in he was not of his normal state of mind. I'm sure you can relate, we've all been pushed to the limit at one time or another.

Jbody2nr wrote:

Hahahaha wrote:It will never happen again,

Will you stake your life on this? Because I wont take that chance for me or anyone else.


AuGuStIn: You make valid points, albeit not enough to sway me from my current view.
I just feel that it is alot better to be safe than sorry.


GAM: Again I still feel that its not killing its an execution and I believe there IS a difference.

Yes I will. I have travelled with him, I ride my bike with him, I've gone camping with him.. No problems, and never any indication of possible problems.

I have done much research into corrections Canada and some US figures, this was a 2 year study for me. There is no indication that murder rates are decreased by the threat of capitol punishment, in fact murder rates are higher in those juristictions that have capitol punishment. It has been shown over and over again that violence breeds violence. My focus was actually on Native women within the Canadian system, but much was revieled through this study. It has been shown that in Canada anyway about 80% of the murders are spousal, Meaning women killing husbands (usually defence) or men killing wives (or ex-wives), generally irrational jelousy but sometimes in defence. The possibility of the offender committing this act a second time is slim to none. Did you know that of all the people on death row only 12% have prior cxonvictions and only 8% are repeat murderers? There appears to be no risk assessment at all even though it has been shown over and over again that more than 80% of the people who commit murder do so only once. Death serves no purpose. It doesn't protect from repeat offenders really because they are so rare, it doesn't deterr people from murdering in the first place because most of the time murders are commited in the heat of the moment and there is no rational thought anyway. There is absolutely no benefit to society on the whole and there is still the risk of killing the wrong person.

If we had the death penalty in Canada Guy Paul Moran would be dead, even though he was found not guilty, it took a few years. It's bad enough that he sat in jail for years for a crime he did not commit. It would be a lot worse if we had executed him.

Like I said, if the system were fair then I might support it. Those with the big bucks get good lawyers and are free while poor people rely on public defenders and go to death row. That explains the ratial lines in prisons as well.. Why are so many black people in jail? Easy, they can't afford good lawyers. The social-economic status of a group figures greatly. The poorer a community the higher the crime rate and the higher the conviction rate.

Would I support execution of certain individules? Maybe.. There are a few really sick people out there, but that would make me a hypocrit. Killing is wrong, period. Killing a killer is just as wrong as what the killer did in the first place except it's got a government seal of approval on it. Is that any different that the CIA blowing up mosques in the 80s? No, not really.. It's just as sick. For the serial murderers, I'd be tempted to set them into the general population at the jail, but that would also be murder, so I can't support that ethicly either.

The only time I can justify killing is self defence. A prisoner is no threat and therefore there is now way to kill them and not be a murderer myself.

PAX

^^^I was hoping that would be you answer otherwise every arguement you made until then would have been worthless.


Of course relapses happen all the time. If someone happens to be picking on him and they dont know his past what if he just flips the bucket AGAIN? There is no gaurantee that wont happen and I wont place my life on it.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

^^ Since his jail time, I don't think anyone will be picking on him. He went in a skinny little kid and came out a massive muscle freak. He was a better person before prison, honest. He's a good guy but he does have some residu from being in prison. One of the side affect aside from being freakishly huge is that he will not take any lip from anyone. I seriously doubt anyone can push his buttons far enough for him to ever snap again. Aside from that, he is aware of the possible problem and can control it. Also there's the fact that his victoms were in control of his life and routinely beat him and ridiculed him for years. Nobody will ever have that opportunity again. There's also the fact that he cannot own a firearm. He cannot acvompany anyone who is in possestion of a firearm. Basicly, it was found that if he had time inbetween being enraged and locating a gun, he would not have killed. The stipulation that he not be anywhere near a gun is for life. He also has no desire to posess a gun or befriend anyone who owns one. Like I said, he regrets what he did, he is aware of what happened. He volentarily seeks cousel. He poses no threat. My honest opinion of this particular situation is that the punishment he recieved was to give friends and neighbours of the victoms some feelings of justice.

Gotta go, at work, needed

PAX

Yeah so no one will ever have the opertuaity to pick on him BECAUSE he murdered
them!! And you said kids or children first thats where I got it from. So then you mean to tell the state you live in is fine with murdering nut jobs walking free? Remind me never
to come there thanks just the same.

I don't care to hear the warm fuzzy moments you chose to spend with a murderer thats
your problem not mine.

they should have fryed his murdering ass.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jbody2nr:
Execution is wanton killing of a prisoner by the state.
Murder is wanton killing of a person, by a person.

At what point would you not excuse mass murder? Ethnic Cleansing? The Final Solution?

The serial murderers have reasons for doing what they do, anti-social as they are, it stands to their measure of reason.

The Ethnic Cleansing in the Balkans... it's going back over 400 years, and had nothing to do with the people alive today... it's ancient history, but to the ones weilding the weapons and covering over the mass-graves it's justified because it's atonement in blood.

The Final Solution was not only justified, it was seen as the necessary step to vault Germany into the 1000 year empire.... it was madness, the wholesale slaughter, starvation and belabourment of Jews, gypsies, non-conformists, communists and POWs... but, The Fuhrer dictated it to the nation as good, and it was good.

It's killing for killing's sake. Cut and dry.

No person or people have any right to kill another for want. That's an absolute.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I said he is a loving father. I never mentioned kids or children. He has one child.

He is not a murdering "nut job" that's my point. Most murders are one shot deals.

The state I live in is called Canada, we have very few murders so you have little to worry about.

You are the one with the problem. That becomes more apparent with every post.

Let's drop my friend and just ask this. Do you think that more money means you go free? Do you think OJ did it? Do you think that people who can't afford cousel get a fair shake? Have you ever been or known someone who was wrongly accused or better yet convicted? Do you think a punative justice system serves any purpose apart from vengance?

You seem to know very little about the topic really. I believe that their is only one US state that uses the chair anymore, the rest use leathal injection.

Do you think it was right for Texas to execute the mentally handicapped?

Why would you kill anyone that is zero risk? Does that serve any purpose what-so-ever?

PAX

"LIE ALERT

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm

Scroll down

Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08


Looks like you were off by about $44,914, should have really looked it up. Rather than pull some figure out of your ass and make yourself look like an ass when your proved wrong."

Hmm, that TEXAS page (not national) says that the drug cost is $86.08. There are other costs aren't there? Don't be a dufass. That very same page says that the average stay on death row is 10 years with a daily cost of $61.58. That translates to $224 767.00 ... I know I know, next you'll say that they need to be done faster, then you'll say that there shouldn't be an appeals process.. Ya, wait till someone accuses you of something you didn't do.. Then there's no appeal.. See how you like it.

If they are serving a prison sentence it still cost money doesnt it.

If they are in jail for 10 years then executed

or are kept alive for 60 years which cost more

Ummm lets see in prison for life.

You get appeals for anything your sentenced for so that will cost money either way.


Like I said before, the vast majority of criminals are not repeat offenders, the vast majority of murders are crime of passion, heat of the moment. The murderer is highly unlikely to re-offend. Yes, there are sick exceptions but you cannot make rules based on the minority, it's not at all just to the rest of the offenders who may fall into the catagory of offenders targeted.

So what does it matter if it their first crime and heat of the moment. We still have two things, someone who has killed an innocent person, and we have a dead victim.


For those who argue that an offender may be release to kill again need to ask, how did they get released?

Its called parole. And lots of people get it and are let go, only to return to prison.

Illinois death row inmate Arron Patterson let go from prison a few years ago, after Gov. Ryan said he was innocent. He is back in jail for weapons charges, already. Things dont change, criminals 99% of the time dont change.

I have a very good friend that killed two people, he was 15 at the time. He was guilty of murder an in some juristictions would have been executed. Turns out that he is now a national logistics manager and is a loving father and responsible citizen. He just happened to have a serious chemical deficientcy and l;ost his mind for a few weeks. The people he killed are the only ones in the world with that particular relationship to him therefore that set of circumstances can never happen again, he will not re-offend, I garentee it. He is a benefit to society as of now, and will continue to be until at least retirement age. He is a perfect example of why we shouldn't just right off people as "murderers" and kill them. He comitted murder, he is not a murderer though.

I'm calling BS, unless you supply a full name. By the way he wouldnt have been executed anywhere. The minimum age for the DP was 16, and some states had it at 16, but now it 18.

See my point? Not likely, you are still blinded by rage and a total lack of understanding. You guys point to the extreme as the example, you can come up with a few killers who deserve to die, but you forget about the more than 3500 people sentenced to death right now awaiting execution. Are they all serial killers? Did they all mutilate a little girl then kill her and her family or other such hanious act? No. The answer is no and you know it. Most of the people on death row are guilty of not having the resource to get a good lawyer. You know if OJ was poor he'd be among them. Maybe if the system was fair I could agree with it, but it most certainly isn't and since humans are involved, it never will be.

Damn right its rage, I totally agree. I'm really pissed that we let all these people who take innocent lives live in jail via my tax dollars.

Rather than it going to find a cure for cancer, we are keeping people like Rimeriz alive, he only killed at least 13 people and is on CAs death row.

It isnt my fault you claim they dont have a "good lawyer". How about you take a second job and help fund the cause then. I dont see why we should have to use more of my tax dollars so everyone can have a "Dream team" like OJ did.






- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

Hahahaha wrote:

Do you think it was right for Texas to execute the mentally handicapped?

Why would you kill anyone that is zero risk? Does that serve any purpose what-so-ever?

PAX

Before we get to far into the mental defense. You can get off death row if found mentaly retarted, an IQ below 70. But there is a margin of error, of five points.

So if someone acts stupid during the IQ test and gets say 74. They cant be executed because we cant execute the so called mental nutcases.

If you are smart enough to kill someone, your smart enough to know what death is. Tough @!#$ the killer, they shouldnt have killed in the first place.

As for the second comment. What are you talking about people on death row and them not being a risk. That is totally untrue, they are the greatest risk, societys worst offenders.

If you kill someone, you should then be executed for it.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

HAhahaha: Maybe some people really can change but that doesnt excuse him from what he did. Even still it could happen after 20 years he could just snap doesnt matter what it is. Thats why its called a relapse, it could happen anywhere at anytime for any reason.



GAM: Its not a want for an execution its a need. For our protection.

Ethnic cleansing is a whole other story. Its wrong plain and simple. Simply because none of the people commited any crimes against humanity whatsoever. The holocaust, WRONG in so many ways. They did nothing to deserve it but, murderers... cold-blooded ones dont deserve rights as a human being.

If you know the difference between right a wrong then you have to take responsibilty for your actions. Sometimes that means with your life.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Locking people up for life without parole is protection enough.

Liberate a bunch of the unnecessarily incarcerated prisoners, and keep the guards focused on the really bad people.

I think there's a prisoner in Illinois or Michigan (I know MI has no Death penalty, not sure about IL off hand) that has been designated so violent, he's to have no human contact. He's in a sub-basement of the prison, and he's locked behind 4 sets of gates, and he's not allowed to even see his doctor face to face.

I think that's secure enough... even though its utterly de-humanising (but that's not germaine to the discussion).



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

So then its better to house these animals and pay for there upkeep much like a zoo.
Hmm, interesting. Can we feed them peanuts? I know more then you Ha ha my father used to lock away nut jobs like your muscle bound friend. So you have a friend thats a worthless murdering animal and suddenly your an expert on the intire criminal justice system and apparently a doctor of psychology. Wow and even with all of your knowledge you come here and grace us with your persents. I have given reason after reason after reason as to why these animals deserve death and every time you guys who oppose it alter your arguement to try to validate your position. I'm sorry but your just about out of manuvering room. First its immorel then when you are shown these people have no morels so they do not apply. Then its well God doesn't want us to kill people To that I answered you with one of the comandments which in its proper translation reads " Thall shall not do MURDER unto another person" And that since God has been kicked out of court it does not matter. Then you try to equate there life with a price tag sorry no good here either what price does the peoples lives that were taken equal to in your grand equastion? Time after time Youv'e put them up and we have shot you down. Do you know why this is? Its because we who support the death penality are right and you who oppose it are wrong.

Hahaha, do you remember Mr. Jefferey Dalmere? He was a great guy loved by his neibors and co-workers and friends. But get him drunk and mad and your dead and
hes haveing sex with your decapitated head in its eye sockets. Pretty picture huh?
Now think of this and try to tell us how you can possibly know anything at all as to whats
going thru the mind of your friend the murderer.

ALL MURDERERS SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH. IF THIS GOES AGAINST YOUR VALUES THEN FINE SO BE IT BUT THE REST OF SOCIOTIY HAS THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OURSELVES AT ANY PRICE FROM THESE TYPES OF ANIMALS. IF THEY GET OUT THEY CAN KILL AGAIN. BUT YOU CAN NOT GET OUT OF A BOX THATS 8 FOOT DEEP IN THE GROUND.

Argue all you want it will do you no good at all, Talk till your blue in the face whatever but
they can murder again put them 8 foot deep and they can't hurt anyone ever again.



Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

jack: Question, Did you buy your wife a De Beers diamond? did you ever buy Shell, Chevron or Sunoco Gas? Have you ever had Beluga Caviar?

All the companies I just listed have supported outright murder. If you've bought from them, you've supported them... you're no better than they are.

I say again, you can talk all you like about protecting society, but it's all acadmeic until you're the one that's falsely accused and convicted.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Bought her a diamonds from a private jewler. I use Exxon gas they only pollute the coast line when they drive a tanker onto a reef. And fish eggs? Come on man thats gross.

So no I'm good. But thank you for the info. Now I know where not to buy gas which diamonds to be sure not to buy and you so don't have to worry anout the fish eegs.

But its nice to see that your looking out for me Gam. You are so on my Christmas card list now.


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

People like Jeffry Dalmer are the exception not the rule. You act as if everyone who has committed murder is a serial killer, the stats show that to be untrue. Like stated and ignored a million times before, more that 80% of murderers will not kill again.

It is not BS that I have a friend that is a convicted murderer. No I will not name him because he has a right to privacy. People in this area still remember his name, enough said. It was a shocking (because he was young) case that was in the media for a bit.

I don't have a degree in psyc but my g/f does and I proof read all her essays. I also went over all those prisoner stats as I was helping her with some reasearch (mostly aimed at Native Canadian women). Thats why I am well versed in Canadian stats regarding re-offending. Did you know that 95% of the native women in jail for murder were sexually molested (usually more than once) prior to their offence? hmm, I wonder if there's a connection?

Quote:

ALL MURDERERS SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH. IF THIS GOES AGAINST YOUR VALUES THEN FINE SO BE IT BUT THE REST OF SOCIOTIY HAS THE RIGHT TO PROTECT OURSELVES AT ANY PRICE FROM THESE TYPES OF ANIMALS.

It seems that even in the US (executes more people than anywhere else in the "free" world) society does not agree with you. Only 11 of the 50 states actually have statues of execution.

You continuously bring up the most extreme cases. I absolutely agree that those people should be removed from society permanently. The difference is the method. I cannot support execution because allowing it at all means allowing innocent people to be executed (very few, granted), and people who are unlikely to re-offend are executed. I am not supporting murder, in any form. The pro-capital punishment camp keeps saying things like "these animals" and "let out just to kill again". The "animal" bit resembles war propaganda, an effort to take the face of of these people. Followed by the lie. The FACT is that MOST murderers DO NOT reoffend. Yes, some do. Those are the ones that make the headlines. Your camp has raised a few cases, what about 5 or so? There are currently 3400 and change people awaiting execution in the US right now. More than 500 have been executed since its reinstatement in 1973. How many can you name? How many Jefferery Dalmer(s) are in that bunch? How many Ted Bundy(s) or Paul Bernardo(s). How about Henry Oag? Offenders like these, true sociopaths are truely rare. I cannot justify killing so that we make sure we kill that 1 in 100 million person who is capable of such acts. How many Guy Paul Morans are in there (he was a guy who served many years for the murder of a little girl, he didn't do it, he is now free)?

2% of the people on death row were at or under the age of 17 at the time of arrest.

PAX

Caviar is good

Glad to be on the list.. I'll send you one of the extra fingers we have laying around... you can keep it as a memento. No extra charge.

Back to the point: Execution is merely wanton killing of a convict, out of want... it doesn't protect the innocent, it doesn't deter crime, and the person who has killed once was probably not doing it out of blood lust. I don't see why it's so unreasonable to accept life without parole. Society is protected, the convict is still alive, and if the person is exonerated, you don't have another life on your conscience, and a wrongful death suit to boot.





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Hahahaha might want to use Google more often

"Only 11 of the 50 states actually have statues of execution."

38 do, 12 dont, get it right please.

I dont like to debate with people who refuse to even get their facts right

As for the story about your friend, if his name is known publicy where you live, why not share it with the internet.

See I still call BS on that.



So what if they do or dont reoffend, still the fact they killed someone and they should die for it.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

Do you advocate the removal of a thief's left hand upon conviction as well?

Let the punishment fit the crime. Life imprisonment is not unreasonable.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I guess I misread

Quote:

In 2003, 65 persons in 11 States and the Federal system were executed -- 24 in Texas; 14 in Oklahoma, 7 in North Carolina; 3 each in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and Ohio; 2 each in Indiana, Missouri, and Virginia; and 1 each in Arkansas and the Federal system.

from here.

My bad sorry. I did check my facts though.

He could google his name and then I'd have to explain that I was debating, then he'd be all like "why did you use my name, man.. Your a jerk" and I'd be all like "Ah man, I gave into some internet guy's presure" and then I'd realize how stupid that was and I'd have to kick my own ass.

All I can tell you is that I have no reason to lie. I haven't lied about anything in any of these forums. I don't see the point of lying, somebody, somewhere always knows the truth. It was a long time ago, about 20 years. He served some time in jail (max security) then some time in a half way house, then some time on parole. Now he is free less a couple restrictions (firearms for example). Acording to our law he has paid his debt and therefore I will not give enough detail (including his name) to identify him. Enough said. He is an upstanding citizen who obeys the law (less speeding and the like, just like the rest of us), pays his taxes and contributes to his community. I know that he has great remorce regarding his offence and will carry his guilt to his grave, we have discussed it. I knew him before the offence, I was surprised when it happened and I was was leary of him when he was initially released. I understand why people would react less than positively to him, I did that myself. I saw him frequently because he is related to a friend. He had to earn every inch of my trust back, as he did with everyone who knew him. He has done that. He has made something really good with himself and continues to improve his contribution as time goes on. You wouldn't believe how deticated he is to improving his life and those around him. Honestly, he is a good guy who made a huge mistake. I am not saying what he did was OK, nobody will ever fully forgive him for that, including himself.

PAX

I agree you should not give his name out. Even tho he is a murderer because well lets face it I don't want to talk to him, You know what I think should be done.

Rob this is not going to work. They simply do not understand. They want names we give names then they change there arguement around and try to come at it from a different angle. And every time we show them what they ask for and its not good enough, Or its an extreme case, Or not usual. There are backed into a corner and are grasping at straws at this point. I thank you and everyone else here who has provided the evidence that the opposers of the dp have asked for and then changed ther minds when they were presented with it. Its O.k. for you guys to have high moral standards
theres nothing wrong with fighting for what you believe in. but by the same token I believe people who murder do not deserve to live.

There is a difference between Murder, Killing, and Exicution. The result may be the same but the way you got there is not.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

What are you talking about? All you have said (repeatedly) is that if you kill you should get killed.

We asked to hear the befits, no didn't reply.

We demonstrated that re-offenders are the exception, you ignore it.

We argue that people can be rehabilitated, with few exceptions. You repeat your demonstrations of those eceptions and chant your war cry of "die, die die!" all over again.

We accuse you of irrational and emotional thinking on the topic and you agree.

You haven't debated at all. You're copping out.

We asked to hear the befits, no didn't reply.

The US has executed over 979 people since 1976 when the Supreme court said it was okay.
That is 979 killers that wont kill again, that is 979 killers that wont ever have a heart attack and cost me big $$$$$, that is 979 jail cells that arent being occupied by them.

We demonstrated that re-offenders are the exception, you ignore it.

I have said before it doesnt matter if they reoffend or not. The point is they still commited the crime in the first place.

You sitting here saying, but they might not do it again, but you dont know.

Go to

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=1264

You can look on the right side, how many victims they had. Keep in mind most of them had more victims. This site is an anti-dite. They only count the victims the killers were convicted for. Lots of them had atleast 2 to, some even had 168 people McVeigh.

"The 575 killers who were executed between 1998 and 2004 had murdered at least 1199 people.
That is an average of 2.09 victims per executed killer."

Read that above statment.

So there we have proven your theroy of they may not reoffend, to they will offend.


We argue that people can be rehabilitated, with few exceptions. You repeat your demonstrations of those eceptions and chant your war cry of "die, die die!" all over again.

Nope they will reoffend, at least 2 victims per killer executed, seems pretty clear to me they will. Damn right I cheer "die die die" That way they die and no more innocent people will have to.

We accuse you of irrational and emotional thinking on the topic and you agree.

You haven't debated at all. You're copping out

Seems if anyone is baseing their side on emotion it is YOU. My morals and my religion, say dont kill those poor killers, give them another chance, rehabilate them, dont kill its wrong.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new