Wow, its hard to believe people are stoked about this head...

got any clearer shots of the flow sheets? I'm interested to see the port velocity (in FPS) also whats the cross sectional area of the port?

not trying to be a jackass, just trying to see what the hype is about. Sure the .400"+ numbers came out great, but from what i see you killed the low lift numbers which is where these engines prettymuch live with the factory and most aftermarket camshafts. Wouldnt be too bad with W41 or HG2 cams or set of custom spec'd cams.


_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

forgot to add, why are you testing on a 4" bore? why not test on a bore size more suited to the engine and get some more realistic numbers?


_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

Justin_Inc wrote:Wow, its hard to believe people are stoked about this head...

got any clearer shots of the flow sheets? I'm interested to see the port velocity (in FPS) also whats the cross sectional area of the port?

not trying to be a jackass, just trying to see what the hype is about. Sure the .400"+ numbers came out great, but from what i see you killed the low lift numbers which is where these engines prettymuch live with the factory and most aftermarket camshafts. Wouldnt be too bad with W41 or HG2 cams or set of custom spec'd cams.

I think its safe to say that most on this site that would put out the money for this head would either be using a good amount of boost or at least HO cams which are .410 lift. He said this was the full race version and that he offers a street version that is more suited for lower lift flow numbers in his posts.

Its not all about flow numbers, theres alot more to the pie than bragging about CFM.


_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

That's why I'd like to see actual scans that you can clearly read all the info, not some grainy picture of the print outs.






"The FACTS are always subject to CHANGE once the TRUTH is applied"
"In the entire history of man the only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked"

Justin_Inc wrote:Its not all about flow numbers, theres alot more to the pie than bragging about CFM.

agreed... the LD9 head has been known to carry nice veloscity so id like to know just how much opening it up this much effects that part of it.



If it takes forever.... I will die trying. Underdog Racing

Justin_Inc wrote:Its not all about flow numbers, theres alot more to the pie than bragging about CFM.

yeah im well aware of that, thanks and where in this thread did i brag about cfm???. in fact i tell people that all that time that its not all about the big numbers. go over to css and look in the lsj section for the thread i started about newts head that im going to be porting. like stated above this is a race head, low lift numbers may be lacking over stock but for anybody that buys one of these heads they're rpms and cam lift should not be if theya re running this head. if u read the thread u would know that i outsource my flow benching, thats why its used on a 4" bore because im not the one doing the flowing, ill ask my guy though if it will make u happy. port dimesions are propriatery, sorry sir. and if u look closely u can see the velocity numbers.

gary if u wanted more clear shots why dont u just ask me. again lack of communication like with the paypal.


mike






Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, January 11, 2011 7:00 PM

i make neons and j-bodys go fast

heres that thread i was referring to where i state that high number dont mean anything. somebody could put numbers up that are higher then mine and it wouldnt bother me a bit. because it wasnt on the same bench and like i always say numbers are not everything. this head just happened to flow as much as it did.

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/ammfab-race-ported-lsj-head-n-application-237952/


mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, January 11, 2011 6:58 PM

i make neons and j-bodys go fast

ammfab wrote:

Justin_Inc wrote:Its not all about flow numbers, theres alot more to the pie than bragging about CFM.

yeah im well aware of that, thanks and where in this thread did i brag about cfm???. in fact i tell people that all that time that its not all about the big numbers. go over to css and look in the lsj section for the thread i started about newts head that im going to be porting. like stated above this is a race head, low lift numbers may be lacking over stock but for anybody that buys one of these heads they're rpms and cam lift should not be if theya re running this head. if u read the thread u would know that i outsource my flow benching, thats why its used on a 4" bore because im not the one doing the flowing, ill ask my guy though if it will make u happy. port dimesions are propriatery, sorry sir. and if u look closely u can see the velocity numbers.

gary if u wanted more clear shots why dont u just ask me. again lack of communication like with the paypal.


mike

Mike please dont take this as me being a prick, i came into this thread late in the game, I'm stating this as my own opinion from my years of experience building and modifying engines.

I never meant you were bragging about CFM, I'm just saying that from the flow charts your intake port is IMO very poor.. If this head sees any decent gains its going to be because you did a pretty damn good job on the exhaust port. You not only dropped CFM from .050-.350 but port velocity has fallen as well meaning the port just isnt working on the intake side. Simply stated, you opened up the port too much. I bet the same CFM numbers could be had with better port velocity without having to open the port up as much as that. You seem fairly experienced, so you should know even on a 'race' head low/mid lift numbers are equally important. If this isn't proprietary information like the CSA is did you do a valve job on it and if so what did you end up with for seat angles?

If it was me, i would be working a lot more on the intake port before listing these for sale as an all out race head.

-Justin


_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

ammfab wrote:
gary if u wanted more clear shots why dont u just ask me. again lack of communication like with the paypal.
mike

Go back and look how many times I asked for "SCANS". It's not my lack of communications. I want to see Full Scans.Top to bottom. Full sheet. Before and After. Times dates, everything. Clearly communicated enough?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, January 12, 2011 5:20 AM


"The FACTS are always subject to CHANGE once the TRUTH is applied"
"In the entire history of man the only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked"

well the bottom and top corner have port volumes and measurements gary thats why they are folded. all the flow numbers are listed. justin, the valve job is ur basic 3 angle. when somebody wants a street head ill get it flowed and get numbers up for it. if u know as much as u state u will know that flow numbers dont tell what a head will do, they give u an idea of what it may do. until this head is on a car on the dyno or at the track i wouldn't jump to any conclusions.


mike


i make neons and j-bodys go fast

Keep that corner folded back then. Scan the sheets and post them up.





"The FACTS are always subject to CHANGE once the TRUTH is applied"
"In the entire history of man the only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked"

ammfab wrote:well the bottom and top corner have port volumes and measurements gary thats why they are folded. all the flow numbers are listed. justin, the valve job is ur basic 3 angle. when somebody wants a street head ill get it flowed and get numbers up for it. if u know as much as u state u will know that flow numbers dont tell what a head will do, they give u an idea of what it may do. until this head is on a car on the dyno or at the track i wouldn't jump to any conclusions.


mike

Mike, Port volumes and measurements wouldnt mean jack @!#$ to 99.5% of anyone on the org. I'm not sure why you are being so careful releasing anything unless you are trying to hide something. Hell I give out damn near any measurement to anyone if they asked. Even with measurements it would be extremely hard for anyone to duplicate it easily anyways if thats what you are worried about. Only reason i asked about cross sectional area was to get an understanding of how the port was sized vs valve size. Have you CC'd the ports? A few other tricks that have worked for me in the past is leaving the center dividers round instead of knife edged, I find in most applications knife edging them tends to hurt more than help. With a 4 valve head on the intake runner making even small changes to the divider can have effects on fuel flow through the port. (next time you have ahead on the bench play around and spray some liquid in where the injector goes then watch it flow through the head, working the divider abit can actually steer the fuel around). I already said flow isnt anything, however from experience port velocity will give you a good indication of what the head will do. I've already stated that the head will or should pick up some decent power but only because the exhaust side has improved substantially. It'll be interesting to see what it will do on a well built engine. As for 'your basic 3 angle' on the valve job, what cuts did you use on the basic 3 angle. playing around with different angles on the valves can pick up some flow and help out the low/mid range numbers as well.




_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

mike - would you mind taking a few pics of that cut up 2.4 head? id really like to get look.

thanks



If it takes forever.... I will die trying. Underdog Racing

Hey mike any pics or flow number for the 086 head you were doing or is it still in your queue awaiting porting, thanks?

After reading this post, i think i might snatch up a LD9 head to port and polish. I believe I have more experience with overall porting than anyone on here. Not trying to cut on mike at all, actually i think people are asking him to give them the best flowing low lift and high lift head all in one which as he probably knows is impossible. The trick is to port to its use, he said full race meaning high rpms. Thats what he did however i believe i have a new porting technique that can flow better than stock down low and still pick up the 20ctm up top as well.

I do believe applause is due though. A 300cfm head is a huge accomplishment that is not being appreciated here. That is excellent if its true. If anyone wants to verify flow numbers i have a bench to compare. It is a SF120 with flowcom. He flowed that head at 25" and then must have converted to 28"? hopefully. In case you all are unaware 28" is industry standard. A SF120 flows at 10" and is converted to 28" much like mikes flow numbers. My bench has been verified by four other sf600 and has a 1.16 correction factor on intake and 1.08 on exhaust.

Anywho im going to go take out an LD9 and check it out, Mike does your cost include valve job, milling, blasting, etc. If i do a head for 600, i really dont profit at all barely enough for a box of Standard Abrasives. PEOPLE CARTRIDGE ROLLS ARE EXPENSIVE,

i still have the 086 head here and i do plan on hitting it up still. theres no point in arguing here so im not going to. yes my prices include valve job, resurface, assembly and shipping too. ive always done my dividers knifed and as far as i can tell they are not hurting anything. look at aarons head, his car just put down 482 whp at only 20lbs of boost.......



and its not just peak power either.


i can get better velocity out of the intake side also just by toning it down some but like i said this was an "race" port which would go best on a high rpm boosted app that needs to flow air.


mike


i make neons and j-bodys go fast

I've always heard the two sides of knife edged and rounded dividers. Why dont you try the rounded edge? An I am interested in a head too. So if you play well you may have a new customer

Applying this work to a head takes ALOT of patience. Ive tried it and well its ALOT of work.


GMR has got nothing on this

mike, what kind of tools did you use to do that to the head? what kind of bits?


01' Z24 5 speed
422whp/400wtq
T4 Turbocharged
Built LD9
HP Tuners

I can't speak for mike but a majority of machinist will use a carbide burr to start with. I always use egg shape burrs except for my cone filing burr i use to leave a fresh cnc radius on all the edges. After carbiding the port, i then use a cartridge roll. I HIGHLY recommend using Standard Abrasives. I start off with a 40 grit roll and then on the exhaust will finish on the exhaust with a 80 grit. It looks like mike has taken it further on his ports with like a 120 roll. I dont feel the need to polish that far because the surface only accounts for 1% of flow characteristics and a rough surface atomizes fuel better. The reason mike took his ports that far is simple in my opinion. One reason is its injected so fuel puddling is not as much a concern and two is people want to see a port that looks like that or even shinier. They believe polish means like rim polish. Think of this though, after you wax your car or polish wheels, what does water do when it gets on to the surface...... exactly it beads. The port is no different with fuel which would lead to a crappy idle. Anyways, i do the same to my ports when a customer wants the heads done alone. I polish and make it look extra pretty even though i know it would be better if i didn't, but who is going to believe that crap when other companies fill the "polished" wants of customers for "flow".

that is a 60 grit finish sir not 120. been doing it that way for the last 6 years......... i just know how to make it the final product look very uniform. its pointless to make it any smoother and not to mention a waste of time. i will not go any smoother then that even if somebody asks me to. as for publik................ well what mr helms said about the tooling is very similar to my methods.


mike


i make neons and j-bodys go fast

Thats really a good looking head for 60 grit. I dont think people appreciate that enough. as soon as i get my hard drive from roanoke ill post pics as well. If flow was based on looks that head would 500+ cfm. Once again nice work mike, i truly appreciate your hard effort in making a cylinder head a piece of art not just a part.

any news on this?



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