[quote=Keeper of the Light™]The beauty of that is, whether or not you believe in god, the end result is the same--

EXACTLY. why waste our time ?



15.891 @ 88 mph stock, still getting @!#$ty launches...

I agree. Science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. There most certainly are scientists that are very dogmatic and unmoving in their ideas, but the difference between them and theologians is that scientists as a whole try their best to be objective and have real (as in tangible) evidence to support their theories/beliefs/ideas. Theologians have their faith which is neither proveable nor tangible. There is no hard evidence to base any religious beliefs. Faith is based on human-written books (Bible, Quran etc) and oral stories which are both in, and of-themselves, flawed by the biases/views of the human being that wrote/spoke it (most of which are 2000 years ago). We can't even say for certain that the people who were involved in writing the bible etc were even sane. Science of course has its biases, but all scientific discoveries/theories are documented using real measurable proof, and even errors can be used to better understand the world.
I don't know for absolute certain that we absolutely did come from monkeys (in time I'm pretty sure science will unequivocally show this), but I can be fairly certain that we weren't the first forms of life here (by a LONG way), and it's highly unlikely that we'll be last. Purposeful evolution....there's not much to be said about that. It's again based on faith which can never be proved. It's possible, but I don't believe it.

[quote=Keeper of the Light�]Random mutation and purposeful mutation aren't mutually excklusive, hahaha.

If you figure that only so many given random mutations can actually survive, much less make it a "better attumed to it's environment" specie, you have to think that both the random and the purposeful theories can coexist until one is proven...

After all, God may or may not be directing the mutation, but he can sure as hell direct the enviromental changes that would favor one strain over another.

The beauty of that is, whether or not you believe in god, the end result is the same--

I agree with your first statement entirely, and your next statement on random mutation, but have to disagree (well, offer a scientific alternative) with your statement that says god directs environmental change. Environmental changes are cyclical events caused by explainable geologic phenomena that alter pre-existing ocean currents, circulation patterns, jetstreams etc. These phenomena (very simplistically) include plate tectonics (ultimately due to gravitational forces), the emission of volcanic gases (internal igneous processes) into our atmosphere, orbital wobble (physics), eccentricity of our orbit (physics) etc. The list goes on and on, but the point is that these processes are quite well known and documented to geologists and physicists. You'd probably be interested to know that there is also very good evidence in the Earth's very ancient past that there were long periods of time where up to 90% of the Earth's surface was glaciated (Snowball Earth Theory). I'm not sure if the bible mentions that anywhere, but the geologic evidence is there to support it. Again, you can argue that God created gravity etc, and we'd be right back where we started.

You're last statement confuses me. What exactly is this end result? I hope it doesn't involve humanity sticking around for the rest of eternity (we'll be long blown up by then).

DanteMustDie wrote:[quote=Keeper of the Light�]The beauty of that is, whether or not you believe in god, the end result is the same--

EXACTLY. why waste our time ?

It's not a waste of anybody's time if you think about it. Most religions are purposefully set up to provide people with guidelines to a "righteous" life, right? Followers are expected to follow these guidelines (such as the 10 commandments) so that they reach a certain goal when they ultimately pass on - heaven, nirvana, reincarnation etc. Religious people put their faith in the words of the bible, Quran, in the HOPE that it this exists when they're lives end. What happens if none of that exists when you die, and the end literally is the end? Discussing the "end result" most certainly is NOT a waste of time if you acknowlege the possibility that there is might not be any heaven or hell to go to when you die. I'm not saying these don't exist, but no one can definitively say they do.

unholysavage wrote:For one thing, the 'religion of evolution' idea was 'created' by the church to convenienty fudge its ideals and beliefs to conform to a scientifically sound theory that damaged the bible's credibility. The theory of evolution is not a religion or even a remotely religious idea - it's a scientific (biological) phenomenon that has likely existed ever since the first primitive life occurred 3.8-4.1 billion years ago on earth (and which likely also occurs on millions of other planets in the universe). Basically, the formation of the religion of evolution is the church going "if we can't beat them, join them".
I particularly love your statement that you KNOW that humans didn't evolve from 'apes'. PLEASE enlighten me as to how you obtained this ABSOLUTE fact. Is it simply because the man-made story of Adam and Eve in the bible? Need I remind you that that story was written by somebody long ago who was neither Adam, nor Eve (and certainly not any god), and who most certainly did not communicate with any of these characters? If you had said 'believe' in that sentence, that would have been OK, but to say that you KNOW completely IGNORES the enormous amount of scientific evidence (that you can hold in your very own hands and see for yourself) that demonstrates the evolution of humans from primates (including the fossil remains of the 'Taung child' and 'Lucy' amongst many others). Humans and chimpanzees have been scientifically shown to share 95% of the same DNA (more proof they are related) - can you ignore that as well? Look at George W. Bush - if that guy isn't a chimp that learned english then I paid too much for my education. Most of the religious people I know accept these theories, and rather than rejecting them they instead warped/reinterpreted the bible in a futile effort to reaffirm their beliefs (which is exactly why your 'religion of evolution' came about).
That is something I cannot understand with people like you, Chris. You find it perfectly OK to tell others that they have absolutely no choice but to believe your quite proof-less beliefs, but blatantly ignore tangible evidence that contradicts the 'truth' as told by an obsolete book that contains more errors and lies than most fiction novels. You mentioned that you were narrowminded and relied on your education until 1998. The whole purpose of post-secondary education is to teach people how to think for themselves (and not to memorize facts etc.). From what I have read, it is quite obvious that education failed you somehow. You're not even narrow-minded anymore, you've basically closed your mind completely to anything that might alter your beliefs. BTW, you believe in a deity, so by definition you ARE religious.
I admire your conviction, but question your rationale behind your comments. I look forward to hearing your response to this.

You can choose to believe the truth or you can live the lie. Most prefer the lie as it is perceived to be easier and I am powerless to stop you. There is an absolute truth and that means that the path of truth is very narrow.

My salvation is the same for me today as it was yesterday as it will be tomorrow. Arguing this point further with people that are not ready for it is counter-productive. I may be hurting the cause rather than helping it here.

Please forgive my passion to see others saved.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

Chris Crossont wrote:

You can choose to believe the truth or you can live the lie. Most prefer the lie as it is perceived to be easier and I am powerless to stop you. There is an absolute truth and that means that the path of truth is very narrow.

My salvation is the same for me today as it was yesterday as it will be tomorrow. Arguing this point further with people that are not ready for it is counter-productive. I may be hurting the cause rather than helping it here.

Please forgive my passion to see others saved.

There's the big problem. Neither of us can say for certain that their side of the argument is the "absolute" truth. Telling me that I'm living a lie is being nothing more than closed-minded because you have absolutely NOTHING but faith (no hard facts whatsoever - all you have is a book and whatever opinion (not fact) that your priest/rabi etc choses to tell you) to back your beliefs up. Thinking for 1 second that your bible is an absolute truth is wildly ignorant. Science at least has aspects that are quite proveable, including aspects regarding the formation of the universe/life, natural phenomenon, universal laws etc that even parts of religion cannot explain. The whole point of my posts were to try and show you that without any proof, there is another possibility, and that you in fact might be living the lie and not me.
But you are correct in stating that it is pointless to continue arguing this post. I cannot convince you to stop ignoring scientific evidence (you don't have to lose your faith to do this), and you'll never ever be able to come up with 1 shred of evidence to prove that any deity exists. I'm sure we could argue this forever and never get anywhere.

Chris wrote:Most prefer the lie as it is perceived to be easier

its is much easier to follow 'GOD' and not think for yourself, so that makes that the lie then.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

For me to say that there are other ways to heaven would also say that there is no point to my faith. Truth is exclusive and not inclusive. Jesus Christ is the only deity that had witnessess to His miracles, His death and His resurection. Those proofs can be found outside of the Bible as a matter of public records from those times.

Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are no pictures/films of him nor is there any recordings of his voice. The only thing available is books that speak of him. George Washington is just one of thousands of historical figures that were around only during times of written history and not photographed or videotaped history. Even then, there are those that question the moon landing and the Nazi Holocaust.

If you want to question one then you must question them all. All lies are eventually exposed. Do you not think that it is odd that someone could have created or fabricated a story almost 3500 years ago and had others that he never met generations later go along with it? ....and keep it uniform and contradiction free? Do you think it is odd that one man fulfilled over 500 prophecies that were written almost 700 years before His birth? The most odd thing of all is the men that were with Jesus (again, check public record) were willing to die for the sake of their mission. I would not die for a hoax or a joke no matter what and neither would any other sane person. Like I said, you do not have to believe me. Believing me gets you nothing but believing God gains you everything.

The best part is that the truth will be learned by everyone soon enough. By the way, science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the Bible. It has however made many discoveries supporting the bible. That is not to say that there are not people trying to disprove God as that would then give them license to live the perverse life they want to live without worry of penalty.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

you're forgetting, unholy, i'm not christian. i was offering the explanation to people of christian faiths..after all, scientificly proven phenomina could be directly influenced by a supernatural deity(and the current hypothesisis of plate tectonics and the magnetic field have to do with the theory that the core is not fully round, and that it's rotation at a different rate than the rest of the earth causes both heat and the magnetic field to be created...)

What i mean by the end result is not so much where humanuity is going (which is oblivion if you ask me), but rather the result--the "ends". Whether or not God created all of the species on the planet, or they evolved to be like this--the end result is the same: We have all of the species on the planet. Whether or not God sent the two hurricanes into the gulf to annihilate those that pissed him off, or that it was a standard-faire weather pattern, the end is the same--people are stupid for building below sea level.

That's what i meant by the "ends" are the same.

Chris:

Some flaws with your argument:

Not everything told about Washington was true: the cherry tree incedent was false. Further, there are paintings documenting him--and the original manuscripts still survive. There are other historical accounts that I don't believe--that aren't well documented, or if there's question I have to the autheticity of the chronicles.

The bible is one of those documents--it has been through so many people's hands--constantine, the council of Nicea, gospels have not been included, the several hundered years that che catholic churche forbade anyone except preists to even look at it, King James, and even modern "edits" to the book. Hell, I had a whole post on how the language in it has changed slightly over the past 20 years--how do we know that what were freading is the honest-to-truth version?

The fact is--we don't. It requires faith. You have that faith--i don't. That does not make you or I intrisicly wrong.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Well what about this Chris... (not KOTL)

IF there is only one true way to "heaven"... one true "path"... and IF God wants all of his "children" to be saved... why would he allow other "paths" to exist to begin with? Why are there so many different religions?

You can't sit there and say that the other religions are there to exist because of Satan, or that there is only ONE true way to Heaven. Chris, from what I've read, it seems you are saying your personal beliefs are the one and only way to "the holy land" (i.e. Heaven).

If God created man... and wanted people to follow your particular path and that was the only way to Heaven... then why were there many different religions in place long LONG before Christianity or Christian based religions existed? If God wanted everyone to follow that ONE path... why wasn't Christianity in place from the beginning?

I am by no means dogging you or your beliefs, but I would like you to give me an answer to that.

I personally, do not believe for one minute, that if there is a Heaven, that there is only ONE way to get there. That would doom billions of people in the present, and more billions of people from the past, and if God loves all of his children equally and that is true, there has to be more than ONE EXACT path you can follow.

I think it's moreso that "God" or whatever you want to call him, just asks for certain basic things, to live your life the best way you can, love your fellow man, and respect one another and their personal beliefs. I think that no matter what way you look at it, God, Buddha, Allah, whatever,... is indeed the same "entity" with a different name...

For example... the "yin and yang" belief. There is good in every bad, and there is bad in every good. Nothing is black and white. There are plenty of grey areas. Everyone has a dark and light side, and variants in between.

I do not believe in Satan. Satan, IMHO, is a scapegoat. Something to blame all the bad things and the bad actions of persons on... to make oneself feel better. Humans were given free will. It is an individual's own actions that are or can be bad, and no one can be blamed but htemselves.

People in this day and age, are always looking for someone or something else to blame. Look at the kid who was playing GTA and his parents were blaming the game for him going out, stealing a car, and killing people. It's not the game's fault he did that... it was his own bad choices. Then there's the kids who did Columbine. People were blaming a video game, music, etc for what they did. The video game or music they listened to did not make them do those things. By your definition probably, the music I listen to could be called "evil"... I don't go out and do "evil" things. If anything else, I get walked over all the time by trying to help people. I got raped trying to help someone who had said their car had broken down. I in no way asked for that to happen... or did anything to deserve what happened. (This was August 25th, 2001)

None of my beliefs can be classified into one religion. I've read up on numerous differnent religions to a point, and there is things in each probably that I can believe, some in all I can't. There's also similarities between different religions also. Either way you look at it, each religion is in place for one reason or another, mostly to get to the "Holy land" when you pass on. I don't think you die and go right to Heaven if you've lived one good life. If heaven is so wonderful, why would it be so easy to get into? I think you're here, there's certain things we are supposed to do, learn, accomplish, etc. You don't accomplish those things... guess what you've earned the right to try it again! (i.e. Reincarnation). I also believe (forgive me for the wording, I have a splitting headache) "Do as you will, as long as you harm none" (that includes yourself). "Judge yet not lest ye be judged"...

NO matter what you call or how you look at "God"... (take the ancient Eqyptians for example)... they believed in multiple gods... Wicca, they belive there's a Goddess and a God... then there's Buddha, Allah.... I belive they are all basically how a particular individual sees the same being. Is God male? Is God female? Is God white? Is God black? Is God Chinese? I could go on and one... what it boils down to... it is how YOU see "God" personally.

One thing that always gets me though... why in most Christian religions is Jesus perceived as being white? No white people lived in that area back in that time... so why is he depicted as being white in pictures in the Bible??? Jesus was not white...

I could go on and on about religious speculations all day... I'm waiting to see what you have to say Chris.

Keep in mind... I was NOT doggin you or your beliefs. I still respect your beliefs and such just the same

Keeper, thanks for the clarification. Very intelligent post, and I agree with your way of thinking completely!

Chris Crossont wrote:For me to say that there are other ways to heaven would also say that there is no point to my faith. Truth is exclusive and not inclusive. Jesus Christ is the only deity that had witnessess to His miracles, His death and His resurection. Those proofs can be found outside of the Bible as a matter of public records from those times.

Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are no pictures/films of him nor is there any recordings of his voice. The only thing available is books that speak of him. George Washington is just one of thousands of historical figures that were around only during times of written history and not photographed or videotaped history. Even then, there are those that question the moon landing and the Nazi Holocaust.

If you want to question one then you must question them all. All lies are eventually exposed. Do you not think that it is odd that someone could have created or fabricated a story almost 3500 years ago and had others that he never met generations later go along with it? ....and keep it uniform and contradiction free? Do you think it is odd that one man fulfilled over 500 prophecies that were written almost 700 years before His birth? The most odd thing of all is the men that were with Jesus (again, check public record) were willing to die for the sake of their mission. I would not die for a hoax or a joke no matter what and neither would any other sane person. Like I said, you do not have to believe me. Believing me gets you nothing but believing God gains you everything.

The best part is that the truth will be learned by everyone soon enough. By the way, science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the Bible. It has however made many discoveries supporting the bible. That is not to say that there are not people trying to disprove God as that would then give them license to live the perverse life they want to live without worry of penalty.

Truth is something proveable and repeatable; scientists have a word for it - it's called FACT. Sorry, but you don't have any of these to support your argument, just your faith (which is inherently unproveable).
I never once mentioned that I didn't think Jesus ever existed. I did say multiple times that there is absolutely no proof that any god/deity/omnipresent entity exists. Period. Get your argument straight.
Exactly what does George Washington or other historical figures have to do with this argument? We weren't arguing the existence of historical figures at all, including jesus. I do however question whether or not everything that was mentioned in historical texts actually happened. Everything that has been written in the bible has been written by people who were neither a god nor jesus himself. They may have sat next to him while he spoke, but you and I both know that if we waited for just 1 hour after reading each others rants that we wouldn't be able to repeat it word for word, nevermind properly communicate the true meaning of it (if we even understood it in the first place). You argue that the bible is the 'word of god' itself when it most certainly is not. Try playing broken telephone once (and at the same time translate what was said 3-4 times into a different language), and then ask yourself if the mainly oral passages that make up your book of absolute truth were truly transcribed flawlessly. Any semi-intelligent person would laugh at you if you said yes.
I'm a scientist, so if I want to question just one then I will question just one. Why not? Questioning something is how people learn, and that's something the church has frowned upon throughout history. As for people creating or fabricating a story 3500 years ago, Chris, I urge you to go out and take some upper-year archeology courses at your local college/university. Archeologists have very good evidence from cave paintings, figurines and altars (animal/human sacrificial evidence) that ancient humans (by this I mean >20000 years ago) believed in some kind of deity/supernatural being. 3500 years ago humanity had absolutely NO knowledge of nature and the forces (by this I mean gravity etc) that control it. The concept of a god was only created to try and explain the (previously) unexplainable, and to provide some kind of comfort that death isn't the end-point to existence. It wasn't until the 1700-1800s that science started to break free of religious control and truly question our surroundings from a logical, objective point of view. Think about it for a minute - if you existed 2000 years ago near Vesuvius (volcano), you would be told that the eruption that wiped out most of your village was god's fury upon sinners (or some similar form of crap), and there would be absolutely nobody there who could say otherwise. Today you could still believe that if you want, even though scientists understand very well how volcanoes form, and why they erupt (internal earth processes (including pressure buildup/release, heat etc) associated with special geologic circumstances (ie crustal plate boundaries, faults, formation of mantle plumes etc.). The wrath of a deity doesn't enter the equation - the stupidity of people willing to live beside a potentially destructive volcano certainly does. More so, much of science is reproduceable in laboratories, whereas god can't be proven either way.
You can speak of prophecies all you wish - by all means, start up your time machine and take me back and show me. It's all based on things in a book written by humans who would have been desperate to find anything to confirm their religious beliefs. Here, I'll give you a prophecy - some day humans will walk upon other planets. Even better, there's life on other planets (with many likely containing life much more advanced than humans). The first one is pretty much null seeing that there's a manned expedition to Mars planned for 2007. It will be interesting to see how religions deal with the day extra-terrestrial life is discovered, or when live is created artificially in a lab (from the building blocks of life, not eggs/sperm or cloning). You talk about a resurrection. You do know that there are several other documented cases of people who presumed dead who woke up while in the grave, right? These weren't cases of re-animation, but of doctors/priests who declared someone dead when they were actually still alive. It's happened more than once, so why wouldn't it have been possible that a mistake like that didn't happen 2000 years ago? There is a possibility, even if you are too stubborn to recognise it.
The statement about jesus' followers being willing to die for him was truly pointless. Turn on your TV and watch your CNN and even you will hear of reports of Iraqi suicide bombers blowing themselves up for the sake of martyrdom (ie THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS). People in China died in Tienamin square for their beliefs on human rights (no religion involved there). If someone believes in a cause strongly enough, anything is possible. My grandfather and his brothers went off to fight in WWII (and were willing to die) because they believed in keeping Canada and it's future safe. You may not be willing to die for a hoax (that is IF you are even capable of recognizing one), but you're completely willing to believe in something that cannot be proven to even exist.
Your statement that science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the bible is quite interesting. Hmm, the bible stated that the earth was the centre of the universe, and that the sun revolved around it....wrong. Autogenesis....very wrong. The real sticker is that whenever science shows something in the bible to be incorrect, theologians simply go and reinterpret a passage to give it whatever meaning serves them best. Of course science has made discoveries that prove parts of the bible - it's just that none of these discoveries provide you with any proof that a god exists (which is the entire basis of your beliefs). Scientists don't go out of their way (usually) to try and disprove any god - it's just that their findings do nothing to support one.
BTW, you don't have to believe in any god to live a full and rich life that is both moral and just. I'm not a criminal, pedophile, rapist, liar, I pay my taxes, I love my girlfriend very much, and I like who I am. The only difference between you and I is that I'm able to think for myself and not close my mind to things other possibilities, even if they make me uncomfortable.
You live your life of ignorance if it makes your life complete, and I'll happily go on living my "perverse" life.

I agree with you Fallen Angel, but you have to be careful. There are some religions (Hinduism for example) that worship MULTIPLE gods. In fact, Hinduism is considered the "religion of a million gods". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it throws a wrench into the discussion of ONE god existing which is the same god for all religions.

[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]Well what about this Chris... (not KOTL)

IF there is only one true way to "heaven"... one true "path"... and IF God wants all of his "children" to be saved... why would he allow other "paths" to exist to begin with? Why are there so many different religions?

You can't sit there and say that the other religions are there to exist because of Satan, or that there is only ONE true way to Heaven. Chris, from what I've read, it seems you are saying your personal beliefs are the one and only way to "the holy land" (i.e. Heaven).

If God created man... and wanted people to follow your particular path and that was the only way to Heaven... then why were there many different religions in place long LONG before Christianity or Christian based religions existed? If God wanted everyone to follow that ONE path... why wasn't Christianity in place from the beginning?

I am by no means dogging you or your beliefs, but I would like you to give me an answer to that.

I personally, do not believe for one minute, that if there is a Heaven, that there is only ONE way to get there. That would doom billions of people in the present, and more billions of people from the past, and if God loves all of his children equally and that is true, there has to be more than ONE EXACT path you can follow.

I think it's moreso that "God" or whatever you want to call him, just asks for certain basic things, to live your life the best way you can, love your fellow man, and respect one another and their personal beliefs. I think that no matter what way you look at it, God, Buddha, Allah, whatever,... is indeed the same "entity" with a different name...

For example... the "yin and yang" belief. There is good in every bad, and there is bad in every good. Nothing is black and white. There are plenty of grey areas. Everyone has a dark and light side, and variants in between.

I do not believe in Satan. Satan, IMHO, is a scapegoat. Something to blame all the bad things and the bad actions of persons on... to make oneself feel better. Humans were given free will. It is an individual's own actions that are or can be bad, and no one can be blamed but htemselves.

People in this day and age, are always looking for someone or something else to blame. Look at the kid who was playing GTA and his parents were blaming the game for him going out, stealing a car, and killing people. It's not the game's fault he did that... it was his own bad choices. Then there's the kids who did Columbine. People were blaming a video game, music, etc for what they did. The video game or music they listened to did not make them do those things. By your definition probably, the music I listen to could be called "evil"... I don't go out and do "evil" things. If anything else, I get walked over all the time by trying to help people. I got raped trying to help someone who had said their car had broken down. I in no way asked for that to happen... or did anything to deserve what happened. (This was August 25th, 2001)

None of my beliefs can be classified into one religion. I've read up on numerous differnent religions to a point, and there is things in each probably that I can believe, some in all I can't. There's also similarities between different religions also. Either way you look at it, each religion is in place for one reason or another, mostly to get to the "Holy land" when you pass on. I don't think you die and go right to Heaven if you've lived one good life. If heaven is so wonderful, why would it be so easy to get into? I think you're here, there's certain things we are supposed to do, learn, accomplish, etc. You don't accomplish those things... guess what you've earned the right to try it again! (i.e. Reincarnation). I also believe (forgive me for the wording, I have a splitting headache) "Do as you will, as long as you harm none" (that includes yourself). "Judge yet not lest ye be judged"...

NO matter what you call or how you look at "God"... (take the ancient Eqyptians for example)... they believed in multiple gods... Wicca, they belive there's a Goddess and a God... then there's Buddha, Allah.... I belive they are all basically how a particular individual sees the same being. Is God male? Is God female? Is God white? Is God black? Is God Chinese? I could go on and one... what it boils down to... it is how YOU see "God" personally.

One thing that always gets me though... why in most Christian religions is Jesus perceived as being white? No white people lived in that area back in that time... so why is he depicted as being white in pictures in the Bible??? Jesus was not white...

I could go on and on about religious speculations all day... I'm waiting to see what you have to say Chris.

Keep in mind... I was NOT doggin you or your beliefs. I still respect your beliefs and such just the same

First off, I want to say that I hope my replies have been coming across as friendly as I do not want to sound anything but friendly.

God created man with free will. God gave us one path to Him; Jesus Christ. It is up to us to accept that path.

Satan is the author of confusion and Satan provides the contradictions. Satan is not going to be honest with you with his intentions. If he did, you would run in the opposite direction. Satan has provided mankind with every tool we could ever need to distance ourselves from God.

As I said, we have free will. We can take the easy path, assimilate into the world and live for ourselves. Or, we can take the hard road and live for God in a world ruled by Satan. We will be mocked, laughed at, scorned, etc. There is a reason why the world hates real followers of Christ. Christ shines light and the wicked despise the light. I did not become a Christ follower to be popular as it is quite the contrary. I have family members, even my catholic grandmother, that can't stand the transformation.

I have to say that, just judging by the opposition from the world, I must be on the right path. People liked me a whole lot better when I partied, drank, only cared about myself, cursed, swore, etc. Taking up the cross is a hard call and you only understand what it is all about when you commit your life to it. It sounded insane to me less than a decade ago.

By the way, what real Christian (the ones you call bible-thumpers) ever said Jesus Christ was white? I know the false Christians with the statues and paintings (the graven images that the 10 Commandments warns of) probably say he is white. As far as I know, he looks like a Jew. The fake Christ will be European and will look like the catholic Christ.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

unholysavage wrote:Keeper, thanks for the clarification. Very intelligent post, and I agree with your way of thinking completely!

Chris Crossont wrote:For me to say that there are other ways to heaven would also say that there is no point to my faith. Truth is exclusive and not inclusive. Jesus Christ is the only deity that had witnessess to His miracles, His death and His resurection. Those proofs can be found outside of the Bible as a matter of public records from those times.

Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are no pictures/films of him nor is there any recordings of his voice. The only thing available is books that speak of him. George Washington is just one of thousands of historical figures that were around only during times of written history and not photographed or videotaped history. Even then, there are those that question the moon landing and the Nazi Holocaust.

If you want to question one then you must question them all. All lies are eventually exposed. Do you not think that it is odd that someone could have created or fabricated a story almost 3500 years ago and had others that he never met generations later go along with it? ....and keep it uniform and contradiction free? Do you think it is odd that one man fulfilled over 500 prophecies that were written almost 700 years before His birth? The most odd thing of all is the men that were with Jesus (again, check public record) were willing to die for the sake of their mission. I would not die for a hoax or a joke no matter what and neither would any other sane person. Like I said, you do not have to believe me. Believing me gets you nothing but believing God gains you everything.

The best part is that the truth will be learned by everyone soon enough. By the way, science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the Bible. It has however made many discoveries supporting the bible. That is not to say that there are not people trying to disprove God as that would then give them license to live the perverse life they want to live without worry of penalty.

Truth is something proveable and repeatable; scientists have a word for it - it's called FACT. Sorry, but you don't have any of these to support your argument, just your faith (which is inherently unproveable).
I never once mentioned that I didn't think Jesus ever existed. I did say multiple times that there is absolutely no proof that any god/deity/omnipresent entity exists. Period. Get your argument straight.
Exactly what does George Washington or other historical figures have to do with this argument? We weren't arguing the existence of historical figures at all, including jesus. I do however question whether or not everything that was mentioned in historical texts actually happened. Everything that has been written in the bible has been written by people who were neither a god nor jesus himself. They may have sat next to him while he spoke, but you and I both know that if we waited for just 1 hour after reading each others rants that we wouldn't be able to repeat it word for word, nevermind properly communicate the true meaning of it (if we even understood it in the first place). You argue that the bible is the 'word of god' itself when it most certainly is not. Try playing broken telephone once (and at the same time translate what was said 3-4 times into a different language), and then ask yourself if the mainly oral passages that make up your book of absolute truth were truly transcribed flawlessly. Any semi-intelligent person would laugh at you if you said yes.
I'm a scientist, so if I want to question just one then I will question just one. Why not? Questioning something is how people learn, and that's something the church has frowned upon throughout history. As for people creating or fabricating a story 3500 years ago, Chris, I urge you to go out and take some upper-year archeology courses at your local college/university. Archeologists have very good evidence from cave paintings, figurines and altars (animal/human sacrificial evidence) that ancient humans (by this I mean >20000 years ago) believed in some kind of deity/supernatural being. 3500 years ago humanity had absolutely NO knowledge of nature and the forces (by this I mean gravity etc) that control it. The concept of a god was only created to try and explain the (previously) unexplainable, and to provide some kind of comfort that death isn't the end-point to existence. It wasn't until the 1700-1800s that science started to break free of religious control and truly question our surroundings from a logical, objective point of view. Think about it for a minute - if you existed 2000 years ago near Vesuvius (volcano), you would be told that the eruption that wiped out most of your village was god's fury upon sinners (or some similar form of crap), and there would be absolutely nobody there who could say otherwise. Today you could still believe that if you want, even though scientists understand very well how volcanoes form, and why they erupt (internal earth processes (including pressure buildup/release, heat etc) associated with special geologic circumstances (ie crustal plate boundaries, faults, formation of mantle plumes etc.). The wrath of a deity doesn't enter the equation - the stupidity of people willing to live beside a potentially destructive volcano certainly does. More so, much of science is reproduceable in laboratories, whereas god can't be proven either way.
You can speak of prophecies all you wish - by all means, start up your time machine and take me back and show me. It's all based on things in a book written by humans who would have been desperate to find anything to confirm their religious beliefs. Here, I'll give you a prophecy - some day humans will walk upon other planets. Even better, there's life on other planets (with many likely containing life much more advanced than humans). The first one is pretty much null seeing that there's a manned expedition to Mars planned for 2007. It will be interesting to see how religions deal with the day extra-terrestrial life is discovered, or when live is created artificially in a lab (from the building blocks of life, not eggs/sperm or cloning). You talk about a resurrection. You do know that there are several other documented cases of people who presumed dead who woke up while in the grave, right? These weren't cases of re-animation, but of doctors/priests who declared someone dead when they were actually still alive. It's happened more than once, so why wouldn't it have been possible that a mistake like that didn't happen 2000 years ago? There is a possibility, even if you are too stubborn to recognise it.
The statement about jesus' followers being willing to die for him was truly pointless. Turn on your TV and watch your CNN and even you will hear of reports of Iraqi suicide bombers blowing themselves up for the sake of martyrdom (ie THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS). People in China died in Tienamin square for their beliefs on human rights (no religion involved there). If someone believes in a cause strongly enough, anything is possible. My grandfather and his brothers went off to fight in WWII (and were willing to die) because they believed in keeping Canada and it's future safe. You may not be willing to die for a hoax (that is IF you are even capable of recognizing one), but you're completely willing to believe in something that cannot be proven to even exist.
Your statement that science has done nothing to prove anything contrary to the bible is quite interesting. Hmm, the bible stated that the earth was the centre of the universe, and that the sun revolved around it....wrong. Autogenesis....very wrong. The real sticker is that whenever science shows something in the bible to be incorrect, theologians simply go and reinterpret a passage to give it whatever meaning serves them best. Of course science has made discoveries that prove parts of the bible - it's just that none of these discoveries provide you with any proof that a god exists (which is the entire basis of your beliefs). Scientists don't go out of their way (usually) to try and disprove any god - it's just that their findings do nothing to support one.
BTW, you don't have to believe in any god to live a full and rich life that is both moral and just. I'm not a criminal, pedophile, rapist, liar, I pay my taxes, I love my girlfriend very much, and I like who I am. The only difference between you and I is that I'm able to think for myself and not close my mind to things other possibilities, even if they make me uncomfortable.
You live your life of ignorance if it makes your life complete, and I'll happily go on living my "perverse" life.

I am not judging you; just attempting to lead you to the water. You are more than welcome to rest your eternal life on your education as I choose not to. I would go as far to tell you that I do not put myself above the lowest of any human and it is only by the grace of the Lord that I am what I am. To say that I am a swell guy because I never murdered, raped, stole, etc. is totally meaningless as I am no better than any of the people that do those things.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

unholysavage wrote:I agree with you Fallen Angel, but you have to be careful. There are some religions (Hinduism for example) that worship MULTIPLE gods. In fact, Hinduism is considered the "religion of a million gods". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it throws a wrench into the discussion of ONE god existing which is the same god for all religions.

that all boils down to the point I was trying to make. How can we say there is only one god... maybe there is multiple gods... or maybe there only is one god, and those religions that believe in more than one... maybe all of those gods are actually different aspects, "personalities" or parts of one same "being"? Who knows? We dont... we can't prove he exists or doesn't exist. All boils down to what each individual believes is right for them. Heck, maybe that's the whole point of life. To acheive the best we can, do the best we can, and be respectful of others and do the things we were put here to do. Maybe it doens't matter which "road" you take... but the manner you take in getting there???

Chris Crossont wrote:[quote=��Fallen Angel��]Well what about this Chris... (not KOTL)

IF there is only one true way to "heaven"... one true "path"... and IF God wants all of his "children" to be saved... why would he allow other "paths" to exist to begin with? Why are there so many different religions?

You can't sit there and say that the other religions are there to exist because of Satan, or that there is only ONE true way to Heaven. Chris, from what I've read, it seems you are saying your personal beliefs are the one and only way to "the holy land" (i.e. Heaven).

If God created man... and wanted people to follow your particular path and that was the only way to Heaven... then why were there many different religions in place long LONG before Christianity or Christian based religions existed? If God wanted everyone to follow that ONE path... why wasn't Christianity in place from the beginning?

I am by no means dogging you or your beliefs, but I would like you to give me an answer to that.

I personally, do not believe for one minute, that if there is a Heaven, that there is only ONE way to get there. That would doom billions of people in the present, and more billions of people from the past, and if God loves all of his children equally and that is true, there has to be more than ONE EXACT path you can follow.

I think it's moreso that "God" or whatever you want to call him, just asks for certain basic things, to live your life the best way you can, love your fellow man, and respect one another and their personal beliefs. I think that no matter what way you look at it, God, Buddha, Allah, whatever,... is indeed the same "entity" with a different name...

For example... the "yin and yang" belief. There is good in every bad, and there is bad in every good. Nothing is black and white. There are plenty of grey areas. Everyone has a dark and light side, and variants in between.

I do not believe in Satan. Satan, IMHO, is a scapegoat. Something to blame all the bad things and the bad actions of persons on... to make oneself feel better. Humans were given free will. It is an individual's own actions that are or can be bad, and no one can be blamed but htemselves.

People in this day and age, are always looking for someone or something else to blame. Look at the kid who was playing GTA and his parents were blaming the game for him going out, stealing a car, and killing people. It's not the game's fault he did that... it was his own bad choices. Then there's the kids who did Columbine. People were blaming a video game, music, etc for what they did. The video game or music they listened to did not make them do those things. By your definition probably, the music I listen to could be called "evil"... I don't go out and do "evil" things. If anything else, I get walked over all the time by trying to help people. I got raped trying to help someone who had said their car had broken down. I in no way asked for that to happen... or did anything to deserve what happened. (This was August 25th, 2001)

None of my beliefs can be classified into one religion. I've read up on numerous differnent religions to a point, and there is things in each probably that I can believe, some in all I can't. There's also similarities between different religions also. Either way you look at it, each religion is in place for one reason or another, mostly to get to the "Holy land" when you pass on. I don't think you die and go right to Heaven if you've lived one good life. If heaven is so wonderful, why would it be so easy to get into? I think you're here, there's certain things we are supposed to do, learn, accomplish, etc. You don't accomplish those things... guess what you've earned the right to try it again! (i.e. Reincarnation). I also believe (forgive me for the wording, I have a splitting headache) "Do as you will, as long as you harm none" (that includes yourself). "Judge yet not lest ye be judged"...

NO matter what you call or how you look at "God"... (take the ancient Eqyptians for example)... they believed in multiple gods... Wicca, they belive there's a Goddess and a God... then there's Buddha, Allah.... I belive they are all basically how a particular individual sees the same being. Is God male? Is God female? Is God white? Is God black? Is God Chinese? I could go on and one... what it boils down to... it is how YOU see "God" personally.

One thing that always gets me though... why in most Christian religions is Jesus perceived as being white? No white people lived in that area back in that time... so why is he depicted as being white in pictures in the Bible??? Jesus was not white...

I could go on and on about religious speculations all day... I'm waiting to see what you have to say Chris.

Keep in mind... I was NOT doggin you or your beliefs. I still respect your beliefs and such just the same

since my sn can't be quoted right, my post ends here

First off, I want to say that I hope my replies have been coming across as friendly as I do not want to sound anything but friendly.

God created man with free will. God gave us one path to Him; Jesus Christ. It is up to us to accept that path.

Satan is the author of confusion and Satan provides the contradictions. Satan is not going to be honest with you with his intentions. If he did, you would run in the opposite direction. Satan has provided mankind with every tool we could ever need to distance ourselves from God.

As I said, we have free will. We can take the easy path, assimilate into the world and live for ourselves. Or, we can take the hard road and live for God in a world ruled by Satan. We will be mocked, laughed at, scorned, etc. There is a reason why the world hates real followers of Christ. Christ shines light and the wicked despise the light. I did not become a Christ follower to be popular as it is quite the contrary. I have family members, even my catholic grandmother, that can't stand the transformation.

I have to say that, just judging by the opposition from the world, I must be on the right path. People liked me a whole lot better when I partied, drank, only cared about myself, cursed, swore, etc. Taking up the cross is a hard call and you only understand what it is all about when you commit your life to it. It sounded insane to me less than a decade ago.

By the way, what real Christian (the ones you call bible-thumpers) ever said Jesus Christ was white? I know the false Christians with the statues and paintings (the graven images that the 10 Commandments warns of) probably say he is white. As far as I know, he looks like a Jew. The fake Christ will be European and will look like the catholic Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying any Christian bible who shows Jesus as a white man is fake? By saying that, you are saying anyone who is Christian and believes in Jesus and follows him, but has a Bible that depicts Jesus as white is a fake Christian?

Also... I noticed you failed to answer the majority of the questions I had asked of you, and answered with something else. My questions were legitimate, and I would like to know your answers as you perceive them. For your convenience, I have bolded the questions you have failed to answer, and will be awaiting your answers since you seem to be so incredibly knowledgable of what you speak that you believe. Not trying to be a smart arse... but you come off as incredibly closed minded.

Have you ever thought of the possibilities I had posted? Working on cars, and same with other things in life... you should know there's more than one way to do things and still have the same "perfect" result. I'm an auto body tech/painter... there's more than one way to acheive the same "perfect" end result. Also... there is no such thing as "perfect"... or the "perfect" path...

OH here's another question Chris...

Why in the Bible is there no mention of Dinosaurs... or that there may be other "beings"...

I can't say there are "aleins"... but wouldn't it be naieve to think that we are the only form of live in the universe???

I say we give up on him. Let him "suffer" (as he himself says he likes to). Some people just aren't open-minded enough to think for themselves in life and be free of guidelines that supposedly lead to salvation (BTW what is salvation and how could it possibly be better than our current life ?).



15.891 @ 88 mph stock, still getting @!#$ty launches...

Savage: there is one thing that stuck out that I will debate--facts vs. truths.

Fact and truth are not mutually inclusive. Facts are things that are indisputible for most--if not all of the population (and everything). Something like, "A convective, cyclonic storm, which is known by those in the U.S.A as a hurricane, is threatening the Gulf Coast near the Texas and Louisiana Border at this time". Granted, there are ways that that could be refuted from perspective, but most would agree with it.

A truth is something that you know to be true, but can't necessarily prove universally (or near-universally) because evidence is shaky--at best and a lot of it is based upon perception. Ghosts, angels, and religion for that matter, are all truths.

As such, while God exists to Chris--to us he doesn't. Does that mean that he does or doesn't? Who knows.

Anyhow, on your "ancient people", i wouldn't say that they didn't have a concept of many "advanced" things, like gravity, and nature and it's forces. Their understanding was completely different. Gravity was there, but they couldn't, or didn't explain it. Howerver, they definitly USED it. Same with nature--they knew enough about monsoons and weather patterns to deal with it, but the why they never got into--and when it comes to the weather--even we don't fully know (and may never know). It's my opinion that one cannot discount everything in the past, but one must questuion it as readily as one questions there here-and-now, as well as the future. Everyone simply uses everything to their ends, and stuff way beyond our comprehension, we explain in ways that we can interpret. Thus, something heralded as a universal tool of understanding (quantum mathematics), may someday be regarded as an archaic tool of the ignorant when explaining stuff that we once thought we proved with it, but turned out to be something else. You really never know.

Science, however, is on some faulty ground because some of the theories taken as verbatim cannot be proven--except by math almost indecpherable to the layerson. In a similar thread, both religion and scince are operating out of the shroud of "only a select few can see what's really going on", however, at this point, i don't think science is trying to dupe the masses en masse to believing every thing publisghed in a science journal.

My skeptical view is based on the fact that in control of the scientists is the funding for their research, and that in some cases, the common scientific viewpoint is that anything that cannot be proven, well, doesn't exist (ghosts, for one). As such, i take reality as I see it. Some things based out of science make a lot of sense. Some don't. I say take life as you can best see it.

P.s. thanks for the compliments, and if i cam off like i was jumping down your throat, my apologies.



Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

DanteMustDie wrote:I say we give up on him. Let him "suffer" (as he himself says he likes to). Some people just aren't open-minded enough to think for themselves in life and be free of guidelines that supposedly lead to salvation (BTW what is salvation and how could it possibly be better than our current life ?).

I still would like to see the actual answers to my questions though...

I may not be the one to lead you guys to salvation but I at least I got you guys thinking. The seed has been planted.

Have a great weekend everyone! It has been great chit-chatting this week.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

thers a preist and a rabbi walking down the street and they see a 9 year old boy walking toward them. The preist says to the rabbi " Hey lets f--k him " The rabbi says
" out of what? "





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:thers a preist and a rabbi walking down the street and they see a 9 year old boy walking toward them. The preist says to the rabbi " Hey lets f--k him " The rabbi says
" out of what? "

wow thats wrong.......funny but wrong


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

No worries, Keeper - great post!
Just a couple things I wanna clarify.
Mathematics is considered by scientists to be the only PURE science. Math is free of individual bias, subjectivity, and it forms the basis upon which all other sciences formed. If mathematics proves that something is, it's almost impossible to argue it (numbers don't lie - all natural laws are based upon, and proven by, mathematics). Other sciences use interpretation, which inherently adds bias. That is why repeatability is required for the scientific community to accept something as Law.
The definition of 'truth' is "the quality of being in accord with fact or reality. Truth is a comprehensive term that in all of its nuances implies accuracy and honesty". Implicitly, for something to be true, it has to be proveable and real. Religion, ghosts etc are beliefs, which can never be shown to be real, or true. They can also not be proven false.
There are many 'truths' found through mathematics which have never been proven, including black holes, dark matter etc. Some day they will be proven, but until then they must remain in the realm of hypothetical.
As for duping the masses, the whole reason for publicating findings is to give the entire scientific community an opportunity to critique your work. Unlike catholicism for instance, science does not have 1 person who dictates (without debate) what is and what isn't. Science uses its entire collective to explore, and debate about, our surroundings. Your concern that "in some cases, the common scientific viewpoint is that anything that cannot be proven, well, doesn't exist (ghosts, for one)" isn't quite correct. Scientists are by their very nature curious about their surroundings and the forces that act on them, and will continue to investigate the existence of ghosts etc until absolute proof is obtained. There are literally thousands of unproven hypotheses that come out every year in scientific publications - some will eventually be proven and accepted by the scientific community, while others will be discarded (but never forgotten). Who knows if ghosts or gods exist? Maybe someday a brilliant scientist will come along and discover evidence that they do. There's also the possibility that someone might come along and prove that ghosts, gods etc do not exist. Humanity will just have to wait until that time, if ever it happens. Until that time the argument over the existence of 'gods' continues...
Anyway, the whole reason for posting these novels was to try and get people (particularly Chris) to try and think about other possibilities, and not think that their own narrow worldview can be forced upon others. It is very true that I very much hate religion as it exists today (I consider it a form of censorship on thinking, and seems to cause nothing but hatred and death (wars)), but my mind (if only very little) is still open to the possibility that something else is out there.
I have absolutely no idea why you, Chris, would take credit for getting anyone on this forum thinking. Your views may be even more narrowminded than the Vatican's (I'm still referring to your "if your not of god then you are satan" crap). It's no better than the Vatican's views on women's rights, gay rights,etc.). If anyone is to be credited with making anyone think, it should be Keeper. He has clearly shown that he's examined both sides of the argument, and was far more open-minded and objective than anyone else. Keeper, I tip my hat to you and look forward to reading your posts in other threads!

Chris Crossont wrote:I may not be the one to lead you guys to salvation but I at least I got you guys thinking. The seed has been planted.

Have a great weekend everyone! It has been great chit-chatting this week.

Is there a particular reason you have avoided answering my questions?

[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]OH here's another question Chris...

Why in the Bible is there no mention of Dinosaurs... or that there may be other "beings"...

I can't say there are "aleins"... but wouldn't it be naieve to think that we are the only form of live in the universe???

Umm, I'm not Chris, but I may be of some use.

There aren't Dinosaurs per say but there is mention of a huge lizard like creature, I forget the anme.. Something like megaladon, or so.. Very briefly mentioned with no real detail.

As far as aliens go, no, again, not really, but there is mention of the "Eloheim" or "Ones that come from the sky" most take that to mean angels, but hey.. The literal translation is not angel or alien.

There is also the line that says God planted seed above and below the firmament. Many take the "firmament" to mean the asteroid belt in our solar system, but it really just means "divide". Some take it to mean the shoreline, so some above water and others below. At any rate, the passage goes on to say that some seed fell on barren soil and did not grow while other seed fell on good soil and flourished. Being a metaphore, it's hard to know what the real meaning is, but it could very well be an indication that life was spread thoughout the universe, or it could mean that life was put all over the Earth, or thought just our solar system.. Very difficult to know for sure. The fact is that the Bible does not contradict what science has learned, and it also does not rule out possiblities that we have considered. In fact, I'm pretty sure that there are concepts in there that we have not considered and likely won't for millenia to come. Anyone trying to assign a timeline to the early stories of the Bible is playing a fool's came. For example Genesis describes 7 divisions of light and dark called "days" many take that to mean one week in time as we know it. That's crazy since the story begins before there is an Earth, so how could they possibly be "earth days". The other argument against attempting to put a timeline on creation would be the fact that God, as creator of all things including time, does not submit to the constraints of time.

That's enough for now.

PAX

[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]OH here's another question Chris...

Why in the Bible is there no mention of Dinosaurs... or that there may be other "beings"...

I can't say there are "aleins"... but wouldn't it be naieve to think that we are the only form of live in the universe???

They died in the flood just like everything else. Most species were preserved however and those that were dinosaurs are what we call reptiles today. Because the life span is about 13 times less than it was pre-flood, they do not grow to the huge sizes they once did.


Chris Crossont
A.H.M. Performance
Baltimore, MD
http://www.ahmperformance.com

Chris Crossont wrote:[quote=¤§Fallen Angel§¤]OH here's another question Chris...

Why in the Bible is there no mention of Dinosaurs... or that there may be other "beings"...

I can't say there are "aleins"... but wouldn't it be naieve to think that we are the only form of live in the universe???

They died in the flood just like everything else. Most species were preserved however and those that were dinosaurs are what we call reptiles today. Because the life span is about 13 times less than it was pre-flood, they do not grow to the huge sizes they once did.

C'mon Chris, everyone knows that dinosaurs are not related to modern reptiles. The two overlap, with the oldest reptile being a huge alligator like creature that predates the last of the dinos.. Dinos died off with their closest remaining relatives likely being birds, not reptiles.

Don't just make up stuff. There is also no possible way that humans (killed in the flood) and dinos suffered the same fate. Dinos were long dead before people showed up.

PAX