I don't believe in "God" - Page 5 - Politics and War Forum

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Re: I don't believe in God
Saturday, April 23, 2005 6:52 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

But it's not THE chronicle of it...it's only A chronicle. However, years from now, will they know that?

That is a very interesting point, I have to admitt I did a double take when I first read it because it really could apply to any religion.

I do agree with you though that written history shouldn't necessary automatically mean anything credible, much less a religion. As I said earlier, I don't follow Christianity because it has a written history, I follow it for other reasons, and as you said, written history in Christianity is very useful.

My question to you is; I was wondering if the religions that you speak of (non-pagan) actually have written history to them. And, if not, is that why you are arguing the point that a religion credibility shouldn't be based on it's written history?




Re: I don't believe in God
Sunday, April 24, 2005 1:30 AM on j-body.org
there are some people trying to "organize" wicca. A few others have some semblance of written history (buddhism, hinduism, and the other pantheistic religions). But many didn't put as much stock in the Tomes as Judaism, christianity, and islam do.

at leats to my knowledge,


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Re: I don't believe in God
Sunday, April 24, 2005 6:57 AM on j-body.org
You mentioned books that a person could read to learn a liitle more about Occults in that post. Are those works considered written history?



Re: I don't believe in God
Sunday, April 24, 2005 7:07 AM on j-body.org
There are many histories written that involve or talk about wicca. Keeper's point was that there is no specific tome of Wiccan knowledge. There are many books that claim to be full of Wiccan knowledge but there are at least as many frauds as there are legit teachings. I suggest you spend a weekend in the woods alone. The wind, the trees, the birds and underbrush can teach you much. Your spiritual journey is personal. You can lean much from a plant.

PAX
Re: I don't believe in God
Sunday, April 24, 2005 1:18 PM on j-body.org
Thank you hahaha....

what he said is right, but again, not complete...

let me try to elaborate, but keep in mind i wrote the previous one when i was almost asleep, and this is when i just woke up...

They are not so much a written history of the religion itself, but of a personal experience--as hahaha mentioned. A lot fo the things that various authors write about are based upon how THEY do things--and the good authors, like Konstantinos, mention that for you, it will work different. Even if you tried to invoke magick through a teacher, not even they could teach the proper technique to do so because you're "wired" differently. It's almost kinda how no two christians can explain "God" in the same way.

Anyhow, to elaborate oh hahaha:

While everything can teach you, there are things that will teach you (specifically), more than others. While you should never trivialize what doesn't speak to you often, that what you'll listen to. Think of the native american religion's "Spirit Guide" and "Spirit animal". no one has the same spirit guide or animal, and they direct you to go on the path you need.

How can one single Tome contain all of that knowledge for everyone that was, everyone that is, and everyone that will be and still be readable?


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Re: I don't believe in God
Monday, April 25, 2005 11:35 AM on j-body.org
I haven't time to go through and explain everything going on in this thread, but to jump back on to the original topic: There is just as much proof that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist. The way we see things is always left up to interpretation, I present to you a quick story:

Two men walk down a long road. One believes he's headed to a great kingdom, the other believes its just a road that ends. Both walk the road because its all that they can do. Along the way the first man sees all the harsh events and hard-times as tests by the king of the great kingdom he is going to, to make sure he's worthy. The other believes its just the way of the road. The question is, where are these men headed?

The answer is simple - There is no answer. The only way to verify this would be to actually reach the end of the road and see what's there. This is obvoiusly a metaphor for life, in that there is no way to know the realy nature of life until life has passed. So, in true logical positivists form, the question shouldn't even be asked, because there is no way to find the answer. Eschatological verification's a bitch like that.


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Re: I don't believe in God
Monday, April 25, 2005 11:40 AM on j-body.org
SteveL:

Or they could be on a road that never ends, just makes a giant circuitous loop around that by the time they're back where they are, they will have forgotten about it.


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Re: I don't believe in God
Monday, April 25, 2005 9:02 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

I haven't time to go through and explain everything going on in this thread, but to jump back on to the original topic: There is just as much proof that god exists as there is that god doesn't exist. The way we see things is always left up to interpretation, I present to you a quick story:

Quote:

Two men walk down a long road. One believes he's headed to a great kingdom, the other believes its just a road that ends. Both walk the road because its all that they can do. Along the way the first man sees all the harsh events and hard-times as tests by the king of the great kingdom he is going to, to make sure he's worthy. The other believes its just the way of the road. The question is, where are these men headed?
Quote:

The answer is simple - There is no answer. The only way to verify this would be to actually reach the end of the road and see what's there. This is obvoiusly a metaphor for life, in that there is no way to know the realy nature of life until life has passed. So, in true logical positivists form, the question shouldn't even be asked, because there is no way to find the answer. Eschatological verification's a bitch like that.


Im sorry, maybe i missed something, but how does a metaphore proove god exists?


Re: I don't believe in God
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:07 PM on j-body.org
It doesn't.. That wasn't the point.. Read it again.


PAX
Re: I don't believe in God
Friday, April 29, 2005 8:28 AM on j-body.org
All it proves is that the question cannot be answered. Read up on a guy named Hick, he wrote a bunch of stuff on eschatological verification and how it disproves the entire debate about God. Simply put, God can neither be proven nor disproven until we're dead, and when that happens, no one can come back and tell us the answer. Therefore, in practice, there is no answer to the question.

KOTL -
You're making an irrelevant argument. Okay, let's assume you were talking about reincarnation, which I assume is what you were talking about, its totally unrelated to the discussion at hand as to whether or not God exists.


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Re: I don't believe in God
Friday, April 29, 2005 11:55 AM on j-body.org
No, i'm not talking about reincarnation.

I'm talking about time being a giant loop--neverending and never beginning--by the time you get back to where you are, everything is forgotten.

In essence, there is no kingdom, there is no end--only change

Anyhow, i thought the road without end would be easer than a 5-dimensional sphere-like shape for many to visualize.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
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Re: I don't believe in God
Friday, April 29, 2005 2:42 PM on j-body.org
I don't believe in religion or a god for many reasons, but the main reason is a very good one for me. (Religion in my eyes is Christianity, Judaism, etc) Supposedly your god can control any and everything but leaves free will up to man. Why would your god let a little girl be raped and abused by anyone? I could never follow any person or god that would let that crap happen. If he's as almighty as you think he is, why doesn't he do something to prevent that stuff from every happening? If it's to teach a lesson, what lesson is that little girl learning? Absolutely nothing good, the rest of her life is ruined. (Just in case you're wondering, nothing like that has happened with my family or someone I know but that's about the worse thing that can happen because of someone else's actions.) I would never let anything like that happen to anyone I know so why does your god? I've already answered that. There is no god. There is no one controlling what happens here on Earth. Religion was simply a way to control the masses. For the most part, people need something to believe in so they don't go mad. That's why I don't think religion is all that bad. If you aren't strong minded enough to control your thoughts, then let something else control it if it makes you a better person. I do think a lot of the ideals in the book (the bible) are decent to live by and so would any normal person. Killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. I also don't believe there is a soul or spirit inside you. You have a brain and that's it. Everything you feel or think is conjured (sp?) up in that complex piece of matter.
Another little thing that I can remember is that god created everything like it is and there is no evolution. There is evidence that proves that wrong in the Galapogos (sp?) islands. I remember on the discovery channel years ago that there was this bird that was inhabited on each of the islands and each of them were a little different in a small way. That might not prove anything to you, but humans evolved. We evolved from cavemen to what we are now. I never remembered reading anything about cavemen in the parts of the bible I read.
I've been around a few different religions. I used to date a Jewish chick for 2 years and now I'm married to a Catholic. What a change huh? I could care less what you pray to or about, just don't involve me. Don't push your opinions onto me and we'll be ok. You could think a boulder in your backyard is your god, I could care less, just don't preach to me about it. I believe religion is a big waste of my time and energy. I don't need someone or something else to tell me how to live my life. I've very capable of it on my own.
(This was directed at anyone, just my views.)




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Re: I don't believe in God
Friday, April 29, 2005 4:29 PM on j-body.org
Lenko, God didnt abandon you, you abandoned him lol hahaha , that has to be the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard, shows how small minded some people are, i dont mind people believing in religion, hey if it works for them great, but dont throw this crappy *ss god propaganda everywhere. Oh and if i here another person on an award show thank god im gonna call the bugger up and get a celebrity death match going lol.



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Re: I don't believe in God
Friday, April 29, 2005 8:14 PM on j-body.org
God let free will exist in us. Humans are the rotten ones who have gone to such depths of wickedness to the point of raping a girl. It is a great question asked quite often- "why then did God let evil exist." We are not robots but have a choice. So much evidence exists, and even many atheist scholars admit Jesus was real. If He was God's son, then why did God let him be crucified by those he was trying to teach in the ways of love and peace. Because there was great wisdom to His plan, and if He saved His son then no salvation would exist for the billions over of believers throughout all time. Therefore, though it is so hard to hear of a girl being raped, there is a reason for Him permitting it that is beyond our ant like minds that can't even remember names at times. Evil lets us see the magnificence in good. The Lord is just and loving, and His eyes are not hidden from the girl or the one who did the crime. She is not all alone, no matter what your eyes see. Before you close your mind on this topic, I encourage you to read up on some theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine who have put considerable effort into addressing your type of question.

Evolving species hasn't been denied as far as I know. We can see such as your bird example, but that does in no way say humans were not created from a God. God can let evolution exist, but He still started it. As for humans and so many species, personally I see their sophistication and how perfect each serves its function, that I could only believe God created and directed each by His wisdom
Re: I don't believe in God
Saturday, April 30, 2005 3:19 AM on j-body.org
"Evil lets us see the magnificence in good."
That is the biggest bunch of crock I've ever heard. I don't need to see evil bad things to see the good things or ever appreciate the good things. Weak minded people need that excuse, not me.
If god let a little girl be raped and he had a reason behind it, then I want absolutely no part of him or his religion. You do not need to ruin a little girl for life to prove a point. If he is so great, he can come up with other ways to prove a point than that. If he let's that happen, then he's just as sick as the person doing it. I will never be affiliated with any organization, person, or belief that makes excuses for that.
I don't deny that Jesus existed. I don't deny he was nailed to a cross. I just believe he was an ordinary man and that's it. I don't think he was god's son because I don't believe in god. He was an ordinary man. He had a wife which all of you try so hard to deny. Plus, no matter which angle I look at it from, I don't see how him being nailed to a cross will save any one else.
Christianity is so far fetched it's ridiculous. I'm not trying to get anyone to stop believing, but I think you are wasting your time. If people put as much effort into believing an imaginary power as they did their family and own live's, the world would be so much better.




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Re: I don't believe in God
Saturday, April 30, 2005 10:55 AM on j-body.org
^ Bravo!

I feel pretty much the same way. I relate God/Jesus/Holy Ghost to Santa Claus.






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Re: I don't believe in God
Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:59 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

That is the biggest bunch of crock I've ever heard. I don't need to see evil bad things to see the good things or ever appreciate the good things.

How can you say that for sure? You nor anyone else has never seen the world without evil, so if there was no evil, all we would know is good, that would leave open the possibility of taking good for granted.

Quote:

Weak minded people need that excuse, not me.

Weak minded people huh? That's your first mistake, for you right of the bat to think that you are of a higher thinking, or of higher intellectual thinking then someone else. Or to just think that you are above someone or something in anyway, causes you to immediately dismiss any thoughts, concepts, or theories that other people have. Thus making you closed minded in your own right. So who is really the weak minded one?

Quote:

If he is so great, he can come up with other ways to prove a point than that.

It's typical for people to put things on someone else, and that's the primary method for linking God with evil. What if it's not the greatness of God that's the problem here, what if our minds are limited in such a way that we can only learn certain things only through certain actions, don't you think that that could be possible? And if it is possible, we have to consider it, thus disable us to put evil on God and/or humans because we simple don't know, that's where the Bible comes in.

Quote:

He had a wife which all of you try so hard to deny.

You can't prove this any more than I can prove that Jesus is deity.

Quote:

Plus, no matter which angle I look at it from, I don't see how him being nailed to a cross will save any one else.

This is a very deep concept and I'm sure you've heard most if not all Christian explainations for this. But if you still would like to take a wack at this, I can suerly do that.

We as Christians do believe in God blindly per se, obviously because nobody has ever seen "it" in person. But for me, thinking about the alternative to God only strengthens my faith. That alternative being that we just happened by chance, that we were some kind of cosmic mistake and are just here going through the motions until we die for no apparent reason. It just seems to me that through all this talk about religious people being weak minded, and that we can't think for ourselfs, makes sense to an extent. But most of the time it seems like the person making that assumption is the one that's closed minded. To me, it seems like it would take a pretty open and in tuned mind to believe in something that we can't see or touch, something that is beyond our own understanding. To me, believeing in only things that we can observe and study is an easy way out, just my opinion. Not that we couldn't evolved from apes as evolution states, because we certainly could of. But sense we can't prove that any more than we can prove Jesus was deity, we are left to use faith in both matters.



Re: I don't believe in God
Saturday, April 30, 2005 2:31 PM on j-body.org
Closed minded and weak minded is 2 totally different things. Closed minded means you only believe certain things and you won't look at other possibilities, such as racists. Weak minded means you aren't able to determine and make your own assumptions. Most Christians believe and will only believe that there is a god and all of the other religious hubbub.
Back in the day, centuries ago, religion was used to control the masses, and to make money. Think about it. If everyone is made to think the same way and believe the same way and same things, it's a lot easier to control them. If it's easier to control them, you can use your forces, money, troops, whatever somewhere else. And since that time, things have never really changed. For the most part, people will believe what you tell them, especially if you can somehow prove it or pretend to prove it.

"How can you say that for sure? You nor anyone else has never seen the world without evil, so if there was no evil, all we would know is good, that would leave open the possibility of taking good for granted."
That is kind of funny, read it again. That's like saying, if you don't lose a football game and all you do and know is winning, then you'll take winning for granted. No. You just work and practice and train harder to win the next game. I don't need to lose to appreciate winning. I don't need to lose in life, ie have something terrible happen to me or my family to appreciate life. Bad things don't have to happen, but they do and you just live with it.

"It's typical for people to put things on someone else, and that's the primary method for linking God with evil."
Of course I'm going to link him with good and evil. He can control everything so he can control evil. It just makes absolutely no sense that he can made everything and can control everything, why did/does he allow this place to be so bad? I know the answer to that, but what is yours? Why would he allow innocent people to be murdered and starved to death and craploads more terrible things?

Another reason I don't believe god created us is the human evolution from apes. You're right, there are no pictures showing the evolution from apes to man, but the skeletal remains do a good job proving it. I look at facts and make my decisions from there. If things don't seem right, I just don't believe it until I'm proven otherwise.
Also, if you have or when you do have a daughter or son, do you really believe that you will actually think that, let's hope that it doesn't happen, his or her death and suffering was to prove some kind of point? That just doesn't make any sense.




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Re: I don't believe in "God"
Monday, May 02, 2005 5:34 AM on j-body.org
cmsz24 wrote:God and religion are crutches for the weak. Dedicating you life to a book is ridiculous. Religion is a business and followers are the customer. Until facts can prove the existence of god I will remain a hardcore atheist. Also, if god created everything then who created god? He can't just appear from nothing.
Until facts disprove the existence of God, I will remain a devout follower until my dying day.
How is dedicating your life to something that only instructs you on how you should live your life as a simply good person ridiculous? When was appreciating your fellow man and loving and cring for others such a bad thing? When was not being a thief or murderer a bad thing? Show me where obeying the laws of the land cause more harm than good? The only thing that I get from most Atheist is that its the simple fact that we Christians believe in a higher being which is what you have a problem with because that's as far as your argument can go given what I stated above.


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Re: I don't believe in
Monday, May 02, 2005 8:14 AM on j-body.org
Quote:

Closed minded and weak minded is 2 totally different things. Closed minded means you only believe certain things and you won't look at other possibilities, such as racists. Weak minded means you aren't able to determine and make your own assumptions. Most Christians believe and will only believe that there is a god and all of the other religious hubbub.

Although these two terms have suddle differences their roots are from the same tree. Lets look at your example; "most Christians believe and will only believe that there is a good and all of the other religious hubbub". If that is true, you could say that that is a "closed" minded person, just the same as saying that could be a "weak" minded person. Closed because those people only believe certain things, and weak because they can't make a logical assumption about God which they believe because we can't study Him.

Quote:

And since that time, things have never really changed. For the most part, people will believe what you tell them, especially if you can somehow prove it or pretend to prove it.

I do agree that "centuries" ago some religious groups used religion as a way to control people, but I strongly disagreed that this still is practiced on a big scale by any means. Just by the very fact that we as a human race have grown hard headed and hell bent on being tangiblist makes your statement hard pressed to be proven. I'm not saying that religion is absolutely in any case not used for control or money in the world, but that this practice is very rare. Believe it or not, there are a lot more people out there then you probably think with the same mind set that you have, which is one of the factors that makes religious control rare. I don't know if you'll seen any statistics lately on the decreasing number of Sunday church attendences, but it's true, less people are going to church these days. There are some people out there that need help with a lot of things, and turn to religion without much knowledge in the beginning. But soon or a later, these people will by nature have questions, and will long to have them answered, this will make them search for the answers and find out for themselves why they believe what they believe.

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That is kind of funny, read it again. That's like saying, if you don't lose a football game and all you do and know is winning, then you'll take winning for granted. No. You just work and practice and train harder to win the next game. I don't need to lose to appreciate winning. I don't need to lose in life, ie have something terrible happen to me or my family to appreciate life. Bad things don't have to happen, but they do and you just live with it.

Again, how can you truly know something if we've never seen life that why? Meaning, all we've ever known is how it's always been, evil vs good, winning vs lossing, wrong vs right. We don't know a world without oppisites, so how can be possible testify about what we would do in a situation that we've never experienced. We as human don't know what it's like not to ever lose, or what it's like not to ever lose someone that we care about, so we can't say that we wouldn't absolutely need loss to fully appreiate life. We've all taking things for granted at some point in our lives, heck, most people take waking up every day for granted, we just assume that it's going to happen because it's always happened for us. Why do people that have faced near died experiences say that they appreiate life a little more now then they did before? Why do people feel stronger and more prepared for a relationshop after they've been hurt? Sometimes it takes bad to make a good, there's always rain before the rainbow. I think the real problem here lies in the fact that people simple just don't like to be told what to think or what to do. People don't like the fact that we are not in control of our lifes, but we aren't.

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Of course I'm going to link him with good and evil. He can control everything so he can control evil. It just makes absolutely no sense that he can made everything and can control everything, why did/does he allow this place to be so bad? I know the answer to that, but what is yours? Why would he allow innocent people to be murdered and starved to death and craploads more terrible things?

Before I reply I'd like to hear your answer, only because my explainations are biblical ones and if you discount everything in the Bible than they won't mean much to you. But the turth is there is no logical or scientific reason behind why bad things happen, it is beyond out understanding. In the Bible it says that there are things that we simple will not and were never meant to understand. We don't know the entirety of evil so what do we do, we just so convenently put it all on God, because there is noway that we have anything to do with the evil in this world....?

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but the skeletal remains do a good job proving it.

We have human fossils, and we have ape fossils, that's it. We don't have any transitional fossils like an ape torso with human arms and legs, or a human torso with ape arms and legs. So, referring to the famous illistration in all the old science books pictureing evolution from apes to man through steps can't be true at this point. Because, as I stated, we have proof of the before and after product, but nothing in the middle.

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I look at facts and make my decisions from there.

I'm willing to bet that at least half of what you believe there is no proof to back it up. For example, I'm be willing to say that you most likey believe in love, correct? But there's no proof for it, can we or have we ever studed the concept of love? Love is intangible, thus we can't see it or touch it, thus we don't have physical proof ot it. But we know it exsist because we've felt it.

Quote:

Also, if you have or when you do have a daughter or son, do you really believe that you will actually think that, let's hope that it doesn't happen, his or her death and suffering was to prove some kind of point?

I don't have any children, so I don't know what it feels like to have love for your own children. But I've had rough things happen to me and people that I really care about that I didn't think was exactly fair, as I'm sure we all have. Again, these things are not in our control, our lifes are already laid down for us, we are just here to live it. We simple react to what is thrown our way, we move on from the hardships that all of us experiences. This is the way of it throughout the written history of the world as we know it, why should it be any different for us? This is not a weak or close minded way of thinking, excepting something without proof is not weak. It is simply believeing in something beyond our understanding, and as stated many times in this forum, some say it takes more to believe in the intangible, then it does to discount it because we can't see it.



Re: I don't believe in
Monday, May 02, 2005 3:46 PM on j-body.org
Quote:

I do agree that "centuries" ago some religious groups used religion as a way to control people, but I strongly disagreed that this still is practiced on a big scale by any means


If you really believe that, then you are blinded to the work of the modern altar and pulpit--the CRT and receiver combination most people call a "TV" and their living room.

While it's less on "religion" in the traditional sense--if it's not in some mainstream form of media, it's not worth knowing. After all, how many people on this site alone believe that a tan is beautiful and healthy--despite all evidence to the contrary? Why do men and women both believe that for a woman to be beautiful she has to be about 20lbs underweight?

How many preachers and politicians preach about the moral and religious right (when either is not necessarily right or just in every context), and how many people flock to it? The catholics and other churches do urge their flock to vote a certain way.

And lastly, ask yourself this: Let's assume for a moment, i had the fundage, vision, and the amount of shows to run a fully pagan cable network: How long do you think it would be on the air without someone trying to snowball the thing out of existance because it "corrupts the youth". I guess certain factions in certain churches believe that corrupting the youth is christianity's "god given" right.

After all, every Samhain it's usually some christian religious zealot spreading mistruths about how it's a "satanic holiday" (mainly it's christian cousing Halloween), while how many pagans spread mistruths about the origins of Christmas? Easter?

We don't. Now, i'm not meaning to come across hating christianity on this, but the brainwashing is there: the bias in the news and TV and even in the attitude of the government. And really, it's not just christians. Karl Marx was dead on--Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Good thing for me, though, that i'm allergic to opium


Quote:

People don't like the fact that we are not in control of our lifes, but we aren't.

True, but a bit misleading--we are not in control of what happens to us, but we can control how we react to it--that's what makes the difference. Now, you, living in Florida, hear that you have a class-5 hurricane bearing down on your ass, you can't stop the hurricane from coming, but you can chose to leave--and how to pick up the pieces. That's control over your life--not the cause, not the effect, but the reaction to the cause and effect. You play what you're dealt--and be it chance, chaos, God, or whatever you believe in, that is the dealer--all you can do is play what you're dealt--and IMHO the determining factor of how human you are and how alive you are is how you choose to react to it--and that transcends all religions. If Mt. Rainier would go active, and wipe Seattle off the map; I survived because i got the hell out of Dodge, I could lament, cry, and whine "why me?" but it would mean nothing. My attitude is more like, "I'm alive--i'll manage."




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Re: I don't believe in
Monday, May 02, 2005 6:28 PM on j-body.org
I'm revising my opinion on God and Christianity from "bull@!#$" to "cult"

I just don't participate in that cult... nor do I want to...

So.. would the POS bible thumper Jehovah's Witness cow who insists on calling me every week.. please piss off.






<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
Re: I don't believe in
Monday, May 02, 2005 7:51 PM on j-body.org
lenko, lenko, lenko....

next time you stop through, I'll teach you how to do a deathmetal voice--ya know, like Cannibal Corpse so you sound like a Garbage Disposal...

then, when it's her, revert to the voice saying "Hail satan, b***h!!!!"

that will get her to stop calling.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: I don't believe in
Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:16 PM on j-body.org
No one's given an answer to my question. Why ask this question at all, there is no answer.


-----------------------
1997 Cavalier Z24
1992 Cavalier Z24 - *RIP*
"I consistently feel like something's missing out of the new cavvy. I'm pretty sure its 2 cylinders."
Re: I don't believe in
Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:45 PM on j-body.org
OK, if you want my biased opinion. We ask this question because God has put in us a curiousity about the makings of all things. Our drive to discover eventually prompts us to ask; is this some grand creation by an infinite power, or is this some order in the chaos that is so caotic it seems orderly an planned?

You see, from my point of view, if we are talking about and thinking about God, then we are doing at least one thing right

PAX
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