3800 SC Install...with pics. - Performance Forum

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3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:36 AM
Well since the other thread went to hell because of a few I have decided to start a new one. Please if anyone has any comments to make to me about anything other than the title of this thread please contact me by way of email. With that being said lets get to the install.


[imghttp://members.accesswave.ca/~z24/swap/eb/engbay16.jpg

For anyone who does not know the history, my car is a 1998 Z24. The engine is a 3800 SC V6 with a 2000 5-speed getrag muncie tranny mated to it. I'm using a custom aluminum flywheel (9.5lbs) with a Bully stage 3/4 clutch package (stage 4 pressure plate and stage 3, 4 puck clutch disc.) The PCM has been custom tuned to remove the govenor, readjust the timing and fuel curves for use with a 3.4" SC pully (stock is 3.8") and some other minor things. I'm also running a wet NOS nitrous system using 150hp jets. I also plan on running an MSD DIS-4 before it hits the track this summer.

The parts that were used are as follows;
3800 supercharged series 2 V6 (from a 99 Regal with 40,000kms)
SC 3800 wiring harness (from a 99 Regal)
Custom tuned 3800 PCM (done by Digital Horsepower)
2000 2.2l getrag muncie 5-speed transmittion
Custom tubular subframe (2" square tubing with 1/4" wall thickness)
Custom fabricated lower engine mount (using a mount from a 3800 and some flat steel)
Stock front transmittion mount (filled with polyeurethane)
Custom Dog Bone mounts (made with 1 1/2" steel tubing) with aluminum bushings
Custom aluminum flywheel (9.5lbs) made by Racetech
Bully stage 4 pressure plate
Bully stage 3 clutch disk (4 puck design)
Fuel pump from a Grand Prix GTP
3.4" Supercharger pully
160 degree thermostat
N.O.S. wet nitrous system (using 100hp jets)
Thrasher N20 install kit (also acting as a TB spacer)
Custom cold air intake (using an Ractive intake for a 2002 Ford F150)

This swap is a lot of work. First some of the old subframe had to be removed. We built a whole new subframe out of 2" square tubing. We used the stock front tranny mount and made a custom lower engine mount from an old mount from the 3.8 and some flat steel. The front stock tranny mount was filled with polyurethane and used to support the tranny. With a lot of messuring the engine lined up great in the engine bay. Two custom dog bones had to be made for the top mounts as well as custom brackets on the upper rad support. The dog bones were made out of 1 1/2" tubular steel and we had aluminum bushings made up to fit them. The upper rad support was strenghened with angle steel to support the weight of the engine. WIth all of the mounts bolted down the engine is very secure in the bay. There is no movement which will translate into more power to the wheels.

Here are some pics of the subframe...







Here are some pics of the lower engine mount...




Here is a pic of the stock tranny mount...


The wiring harness was made by splicing my old 2.4 harness into the new 3.8 harness. We got a little bit of a break here because we had the PCM sent to the US to be reprogramed. They removed all of the automatic settings, some of the emissions and the ABS so these were all able to be eliminated from the harness. It still took about 25 hours to get the new harness ready to go in the car. We started by cutting what we didn't need off the 3.8l harness, and labled everything that we would need. We then did the same with the old 2.4l harness and wired the two together. With the help of the wiring diagrams from both engines this went pretty smothly. Below is Nathan (The mechanic who did this swap) playing with the harness. The PCM was also able to be located in the stock location.






The rest of the install was pretty easy. For fuel we used a complete sending unit from a grand prix GTP. The whole unit fit into the stock location in the fuel tank. The power steering lines and throtle cables had to be re-routed and some other minor things like that. As for time it was about 70-80 hours to get it done.

Here are some other pics that I took...

The power steering lines were actually pretty easy. We were able to use the stock lines, we just had to rebend them to fit our project.




Here is a shot of the rear exhaust manifold. There is not much room there and we may still have a problem with the heater hoses that go into the firewall for the heater core but I plan on getting some headers made up so that should fix that. And even still, who needs heat in the summer



Here is a shot of the new battery in the trunk. I rewired all the main power and grounds for the car with 4 gauge wire. I really didn't have to relocate the battery as there was enough room under the hood but I plan on running a small stereo in the car and I thought this would be the best place for it.



We were hoping to have the car out for a test drive yesterday (Friday) but unfortunatly GM sent us the wrong belt for the accessories. They sent us one for an engine that has air conditioning...and of course I got rid of my air So we will have to wait till monday to get a new belt and take my baby out for a rip. I will post up some pics of the test drive and hopefully a little smoke show too.

If anyone has any questions on how the swap was done or wants to see a picture of something that I haven't posted already please feel free to ask away. I will do my best to answer any questions that you may have.

One last thing to add, if anyone wants to have this swap done and doesn't have the facilities, equipment, or skills Double Z Automotive can do it for you. If you are going to try this swap yourself and you just need a little help (like having a harness made up for you) then Double Z Automotive can help you out as well.




<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132

Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:51 AM
Where is this place and how much do they charge for the whole job <br>


1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:12 AM
Some things from the other post.

Quote:

Car's looking good James! Can't wait to see the neon's on it (If I eveeeer get a call from Halifax Car Audio-sorry James!) when it's racing down the track You'll have to take me for a little cruise around PPP if it ever opens again. Just wanted to say that you, Brad and all the others out at DoubleZ did an AWESOME job. I can't wait to see her totally finished.

Thanx for linking me this thread Jason!

Vanessa


Thanks Nessa. I will take you for a cruise for sure. Any idea what is going on with Camile? Has he given you any answers?

Quote:

Heard it run today. Holy She fired right up and sounded good (considering there was no exhaust) but the engine works great, and will make an awesome addition to the car. This will be a true road warrior. Wish I had the time and money to do this to a car of my own. Wicked. Again, great job Double Z (Nathan and Brad), awesome job, and wicked car so far James.

It's going to be road-worthy by next week right? lol


It was good to see you again Mark, glad you stopped by the shop. I hope the car is road-worthy by next week, I should be getting the exhaust put on next thursday but with Burn Rd so close by who needs exhaust Brad's cam takes video to I think so I will get some video of it and post it up.

Quote:

Well James, I would also like to congrats you on the car. It looks absolutely amazing. I am sorry that things happened like they did in the past, but like i said before I've got no beef with you or the other 3 guys. Either way, would be nice to meet up with you guys sometime and hang out. I've got a bit of a investment in my car this month, but more on the stereo and look of it...performance can come later on. Hey, check out our new club http://www.etuner.ca Its just some friends doing some cruising, shows and whatnot...just the fun stuff.


Hey Chris good to hear from you. I would love to hook up with you guys some night. By the way how are the kittens that you took doing? Sometime this summer Ash and I will head up there to hang out for the night. Are you going to Wheels 2004?

Quote:

Damn late in to the game

But this is now a engine swap!

But Raven dude, I think you made a wise choice in putting the venerable and bulletproof 3800. This is a much better engine then putting in the 3400 or 3100, especially if the 3800 is S/C.
Now I would recommend you to put some extra bracing on the engine bay, just like the W-platform (GP,Impala,Regal,Intrigue), because that torque monster is going to stress the engine cradle a whole lot.

I applaud your work/skill and also good judgement on engine.

Good luck and let us know on the performance gain!


Geo/G.T.
----------The original Mr.Goodwrench on JBO since 11/99----------


Thanks, we did do quite a bit of strengthening. I don't think it will be too bad. As soon as I have it on the dyno I will let everyone know what it does on and off the nitrous.


<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:25 AM
DYNO DYNO DYNO!!! <br>


Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 9:39 AM
Rodimus Prime wrote:Where is this place and how much do they charge for the whole job


They are located about 5 min outside Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
Map

The cost would be some where around $10,000 canadian. If you supply your own parts much cheaper. <br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 12:09 PM
Isaak wrote:DYNO DYNO DYNO!!!


I will let you know as soon as the syno is done. I will post up the dyno sheet for all to see. I want to give the clutch at least 1000kms before I hammer it though. <br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 12:36 PM
Did you redo any internals? Or are you just using the 40000km internals? You would get alot more punch out of it if you did internals. And while you are giving the clutch 1000km to break in you could have also broke in the new parts. <br>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004 2.2 Ecotec in a Sunfire GT. Check my profile for more info
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Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:39 PM
FyreDaug wrote:Did you redo any internals? Or are you just using the 40000km internals? You would get alot more punch out of it if you did internals. And while you are giving the clutch 1000km to break in you could have also broke in the new parts.


There is no need to redo the internals yet. Every company that I have talked to that makes performance parts for this engine say that they are good till about 500hp no problem. The fastest 3800 powered car in north america is still running a stock bottom end. The internals are all forged right from the factory. I am planning on rebuilding it next winter and redoing the internals at that time. <br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Saturday, February 07, 2004 4:22 PM
Sorry, I don't know how to quote like you guys do.......


Nessa Quote:

Car's looking good James! Can't wait to see the neon's on it (If I eveeeer get a call from Halifax Car Audio-sorry James!) when it's racing down the track You'll have to take me for a little cruise around PPP if it ever opens again. Just wanted to say that you, Brad and all the others out at DoubleZ did an AWESOME job. I can't wait to see her totally finished.

Thanx for linking me this thread Jason!

Vanessa


Raven Ouote:

Thanks Nessa. I will take you for a cruise for sure. Any idea what is going on with Camile? Has he given you any answers?

I called him and he remembered but he said that he hasn't gotten the tube back yet??? I'm starting a new job on Kempt road in a few days so I'll be sure to go hound him on my lunch breaks!! Sorry about this! I can't believe that it's taking this long, I brought the broken tube in to him in Nov! Crazyness!
nessa <br>

<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/nessaz24/testbanner.jpg">
Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff!
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Sunday, February 08, 2004 8:09 AM
Everything aside man. I think you got an awesome car, I look forward to seeing it at the track, I'll admit I ahve no intrest in racing you . Must be pretty cool to have likely the most modded fastest street legal Cav...even though that isint offcial yet.

Do you think Double Z would be interested in putting a LT1 V8 in my 96 Camaro?....I think I'll start saving if they do

Anyways, congrats, and sorry for any hard feelings

Ryan
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Sunday, February 08, 2004 9:42 AM
do you have contect info for Double Z Automotive ? because they seem to be good at this and if i need (i will once i kill this engine) an engine swap i'd definatly look into them doing the wiring(wiring seems to be hardest part, that i can't do). thanks <br>



Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 4:52 AM
Sunvalier wrote:Everything aside man. I think you got an awesome car, I look forward to seeing it at the track, I'll admit I ahve no intrest in racing you . Must be pretty cool to have likely the most modded fastest street legal Cav...even though that isint offcial yet.

Do you think Double Z would be interested in putting a LT1 V8 in my 96 Camaro?....I think I'll start saving if they do

Anyways, congrats, and sorry for any hard feelings

Ryan



Thanks, Yeah they could do that no problem. There are a few customers with LT1's that come out to the shop so Nathan is very familar with that engine.

DvBoard wrote:do you have contect info for Double Z Automotive ? because they seem to be good at this and if i need (i will once i kill this engine) an engine swap i'd definatly look into them doing the wiring(wiring seems to be hardest part, that i can't do). thanks
Quote:



You can reach Brad (The owner) at doublez@eastlink.ca If you are really interested just contact him and he can give you the information you need.
<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 4:58 AM
opps, forgot to end the quote above

Justin H wrote:I don't know how you fit it but props to you. My only question is will the older GTP and z34 engine (3.4L DOHC) fit into a cavy? I highly doubt it but I can only dream of the possibilities.


The older GTP engines and the 3.4L DOHC should fit. The onwer of Double Z may be swapping in a 3.4L DOHC into his convertable. He is still undecided between that and a 3800
<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 5:11 AM
Well I did some research over the weekend and found that we overlooked something. It's not a big deal just have to impravise Apparently the l67 engine (SC 3800) never came without air so there is no smaller belt. We are going to figure something out today for it. We can either find a smaller belt, put the air conditionor condensor back on (but will gut the internals so the pully soins freely), or make a braket with a pully on it. I will let you know what we come up with. Hopefully we can get some video of it today to post up. <br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 3:05 PM
Given all the power you're gonna have, why dont you stay cool over the hot summer months give up 5 hp, and keep the a/c...I bought a car for no other reason to have one with A/c....its a beautiful thing!

Definately not this year, maybe next year, I would be really interested in getting an LT1 in my Camaro, better yet an LS1 but it would take a bit more tinkering with the wire harness I belive, later on down the road twin turbo the biatch, then maybe take you on

Any guesstimates on how much that would cost....jsut the engine swap, no turbos, I do have a bit of money tucked away for this, I'd like to have a ballpark idea how much I need....oh..and sorry for talking about an f-body by the way...off topic
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 3:09 PM
nothing beats a little 2-90 air, that's two windows down and ninety miles an hour.

screw the compressor, i understand why he doesnt want it.


<br>

no rest for the wicked.


Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Monday, February 09, 2004 7:57 PM
ya, I liek the windows better, but as far as getting into a car that has been sitting closed up in a hot parking lot all days, that a/c for the initial cool off kicks @!#$. After that turn it off, and roll them mudder fudders down. I think the 0.001 sec you lose of the quater mile is well worth it
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:08 AM
well you do free up about 7-8 hp and shave 35 or so lbs......

it can make or break it if you are serious, and im not 100 percent sure, but it seems raven is serious.


<br>

no rest for the wicked.


Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:57 AM
The ac isnt in there because there is no room, look where the alternator sits in the engine bay, that should give you a reason as why there is no ac...


Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:30 PM
Rocker Wrote:
Quote:

it can make or break it if you are serious, and im not 100 percent sure, but it seems raven is serious.


Um... yeah I think he is serious as well, lol

Raven, great work on the car man it looks great. Huge props coming from B.C. over here, that thing is awesome.



<br>

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning,
that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~Frank Sinatra

Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:05 PM
What did you do to the tranny to handle all the torque? A stock getrag will break just letting out the clutch at idle with that monster.
<br>

2000 Z

Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:13 PM
if you are going to be taking it too the track (which i assume you will) you will need a battery box or you wont be let on the track.


Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 4:25 AM
On the issue of the air conditioning. Originally we were just going to remove it to make the swap easier. There is room in the engine bay for the air conditioning compressor but running the lines would of been a @!#$. For ease of install we decided to take it out, that and it does take a little bit of weight away from the car (helps make up for the extra weight that was added ) It also gave us back some horsepower, even with the air tuned off it still takes some power to turn the compressor as it has a clutch in it.

Back to the issue of the accessories belt. Nathan (mechanic who fabricated everything) is in the process of making an adapter with a pully on it to take the place of the air conditioning compressor. It should be finnished today. I took some pics of it yesterday but forgot them at the shop. I am at work right now so I will either try and get them sent to me here or I will post them up later on today when I get to the shop.

Burnout wrote: The ferio guys have been using these trannys for years and they have had no problems, they have mated them up to v8's with over 500hp without any problems. They may be rated by GM low but they are capabile of a lot more. I am using the same tranny just the newer version which is said to be stronger.
Quote:



babyboy1085 wrote: Yeah I know, I will be getting one before it hits the track.
Quote:

<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:08 AM
Here is a pic of the pulley that we are going to be using (it's a ford part, but shhh don't tell ) with a new steel backing plate so that we can weld to it.



Here is a pic of where it has to go. As you can see there is plenty of room for the stock air conditioning compressor if air is wanted.

<br>


Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Re: 3800 SC Install...with pics.
Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:56 AM
First off I would like to congradulate Brad (owner of Double Z Automotive) on the birth of his second child (baby girl) who by the way was born in his mini van on the way to the hospital yesterday. Congrats buddy.

Update: We got the new pulley bolted up to the block and all lined up. I will get pics posted up as soon as we get the digital camera back (Brad took it to the hospital.) We also ran into some more small problems. The throtle cable from my car won't work with the 3800. It is too long so we had to order a new one from a 3800. Also we need to replace one of the shifter cables (the one that controls the side to side motion on the tranny) as it will not connect to the new tranny. The bracket that holds the cables to the tranny is also different so we need a new bracket. All of these parts were ordered this morning so hopefully we will have them by tomorrow so that we can take it out for a rip.
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